AKo UTG

[Bob T.]

Online 5-10 game.

I hold A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif UTG, and open raise. Folded to the SB who calls, BB calls.

Flop 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, I bet, SB calls.

Turn 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, I bet, SB raises, I do what, and what is my plan for the rest of the hand?

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Bob T.]

Ok, the reason I posted this hand, is that so many hands have been posted lately where people are looking for an absolute answer about how to play a hand, and I don't think that there are very many absolute answers, unless the question is on the edge of trivial.

So here is the rest of the story.

The previous lap, I open raised in UTG+1, folded to the BB who called. Same player as in the AK hand.

There was a flop, I bet, BB called.

There was a turn, BB checked, I bet, BB checkraised, and I folded.

Given this additional information, do you play the AK hand differently?

[sfer]

BB folded on the flop, right? Am I good more than 1 in 4 times? I doubt it, so I fold.

[Lost Wages]

OK, I didn't cheat. I call and fold the river unimproved. BB folded the flop???

Lost Wages

[sfer]

Yeah, this changes it. Assuming the board was similarly ragged before, this time I look him up.

[BottlesOf]

7:1 with hmmmn, <5 outs? I fold here unless I think they could be putting a move on me.

[gamblore99]

im with lost wages. call and fold river if I dont improve. If make an ace or king I raise....i think.

[BottlesOf]

yeah, as I implied in the previous one, I call this and see what the river brings.

[jordanx]

I'd still fold.

Any read on SB? I'd think that you are beat by a pocket pair here and drawing to 6 outs.

[TimM]

There are some gutshot outs here too, if he has no 6.

[Bob T.]

River card was another 4, and the SB bet. Your turn.

Edit.

I'm leaving for work now. Be back in nine hours or so.

[LawsNStats]

A follow up raise after the flop I'm not sure if I agree with--though this is usually what I do. Granted the small blind is most likely calling on random cards and there is no re-raise. But is AK worth a semi-bluff to try to steal the blinds? You have 4 outs to the best hand against a flopped pair. If the SB called instead of raising to the river, would you bet the river again. This seems costly overtime.

Also, it may well be the SB was slow playing you. A raise after the turn is worth much more than a raise after the flop. I definitely would have fold if I played the flop the same way you did.

Please advise--is a follow up bet worth it in this situation?

[BottlesOf]

Hmmn. This is a good card for us. The flush missed and it's not a new rank. He probably didn't have one to begin with. If I get the sense he is puting a move on me I call. Ordinarily I fold. Ordinarily, I'd have folded tue turn here.

[TimM]

I assume it wasn't the 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I call one more given the 9-1 pot odds and the way the previous hand went down.

[John Paul]

I would have folded on the turn and would fold on the river. SB should guess that you either have a high pair or two high cards and would not bet if he thought you were way ahead (unless of course SB's earlier play indicates otherwise). SB could have stayed in with A3s and was looking at a flush/straight draw and caught the straight. Or he could have had a pair that hit the board. Even if SB was not so lucky, it seems that you are behind and may be drawing dead.

[sthief09]

There are definitely enough draws on a 8542 non-rainbow board to justify calling him down IMO.

[jordanx]

You called the turn, so you think there is a 15% or more chance he is bluffing...

So definitely call the river.

If he was bluffing on a draw, then the 4 didn't help him.

I think your point is that this is situation/read based though, is he the type that would check raise bluff the turn? Is he the type that would note that you folded to a raise on the last hand?

If so, call, if not, you would've already folded on the turn.

[sthief09]

I'm pretty loose with my big cards in situations like this, but I think there's definitely a reasonable chance he check-raised with a one-card straight draw + overcard and/or a flush draw.

keep in mind we aren't weighting hands that beat us vs. hands that don't beat us

it's hands that will check-raise that beat us vs. hand that check-raise that don't beat us. hands that c/r that beat us are probably only sets or 2 pair. it would take a particularly aggressive player to wait for the turn to check-raise with a pair of 8s. If a 6, a 7, or a /images/graemlins/spade.gif fell on the river, I think folding would be a consideration after calling the turn, but in general, I call down on a board like this. if the board had some high cards like QJ8, I'd be pretty confident I'm behind and likely drawing to 4 outs here.

[Lost Wages]

There are definitely enough draws on a 8542 non-rainbow board to justify calling him down

Double flush draw board at that. Unfortunately, there just aren't a whole lot of safe cards that can come on the river to justify calling with ace high IMO.

Lost Wages

[spamuell]

Double flush draw board at that. Unfortunately, there just aren't a whole lot of safe cards that can come on the river to justify calling with ace high IMO.

There are lots of draws but your opponent isn't going to have all of them. You don't need to what your outs are to make calling +EV.

Oh, and to sthief (flat mode strikes again): I don't think it's that rare for opponents to check-raise the turn HU with one pair if I've been pretty out of line in their eyes (which is just aggressive play in our eyes and often I have).

[pudley4]

After seeing the info in your 2nd post, I would have 3bet the turn. I may get a free showdown, I may get an extra bet if a A or K falls on the river (he's likely to check-call the river if one of those two cards falls), and I may even catch him trying to resteal and get him to fold the turn.

If he's not a thinking player, or if you hadn't recently had the other hand you posted, then I call the turn and fold the river unimproved.

[chesspain]

With no read on my opponent (since this was posted before Bob posted the follow-up info), I would fold to the turn checkraise with my no-pair hand, especially since I can't assume that both of my overcard outs are even good.

[dejableu]

[ QUOTE ]
keep in mind we aren't weighting hands that beat us vs. hands that don't beat us

it's hands that will check-raise that beat us vs. hand that check-raise that don't beat us.

[/ QUOTE ]
an excellent (and often overlooked) point.

[elindauer]

Hi Bob,

This is a classic "it depends" situation. There is simply no answer that is not exploitable by the right opponent. If there is a "default" play, it's something like call down 60%, fold 30%, 3-bet 10%.

Good luck.
Eric

[Bob T.]

My opponent had KJs, and MHWG.

I thought that this was an interesting hand, because if the hand was played by itself, I think that either a turn fold, or a river fold would probably be right. An opponent who checkraises the turn, usually can beat ace high.

However, when taken in context with the other hand that we just played, I think that my opponent might have been thinking that I was capable of laying down to a turn checkraise, and therefore he had extra ways to win, because he might win without a showdown. In my mind, that made it a lot more likely that he was bluffing, or semibluffing, and I called him down.