Push With 66?

[RacersEdge]

What do you do after the re-raise?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed)

Button (t205)
SB (t2285)
BB (t1815)
UTG (t1870)
Hero (t1155)
CO (t670)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t200</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">BB raises to t600</font>, Hero ??.

[JasonK]

I'd fold.

[SmileyEH]

Why are you min raising a low pocket pair in MP with an extremely awkward stack size, instead of either a) folding (good) b) pushing in (not horrible)?

-SmileyEH

[rjb03]

I'd definitely fold. Min-raising or any raise less than your whole stack is bad. Push or fold.

[wjmooner]

Fold pre-flop

Chris

[ChrisV]

Fold at your first turn. Not close.

Given you didn't, do it now.

Edit: Also, pushing your stack in is awful, a lot worse than everyone seems to think. At these blinds/stack depth there is no need for crazy manouevres like that.

[RacersEdge]

Right, I don't know why I came in with that raise - still a newbie to tourney play really. Definite mistake.

But I think the fold/push is a good topic. Coincidenatally, I was read Skalansky's book and his "system" and this would be an easy push under these parameters. Why not push here?

[SmileyEH]

Pushing is not "aweful" but the difference between folding and pushing is not very great in my opp.

Could you explain your reasoning why pushing is so terrible?

-SmileyEH

[ChrisV]

I just ran some rough calculations and it looks like raising all-in is roughly EV neutral or a little positive in chip terms. If you are a good player you don't want to risk your stack on situations that are only slightly EV-positive. The other problem is that chip EV is not even close to the whole story here. The difference in $EV between a stack of 1150 and a stack of 1300 is in my opinion pretty small.

"Awful" might have been an overstatement. Maybe "reckless". There's no reason to put your stack in jeopardy.

[betgo]

I would limp here, unless the table is very aggressive. It might give you a chance to flop a set or bluff the blinds on the flop.

Miniraising overcommits. It is worse than folding, limping, or pushing.

If the ratio of your stack to the blinds was a little lower, I would push. Pushing is basically an even gamble.

[SmileyEH]

Limping for 8% of your stack is criminal....it is like putting your chips in front of them with a sign reading: "For Stealing".

-SmileyEH

[rjb03]

Yeah...definitely DO NOT LIMP.

[chill888]

Personally,

I'd usually fold preflop and definitely post-flop. But it depends on the game conditions.
If I have played (for whatever reason) hardly any hands against very tight opponents - then a small raise is definitely doable. ALthough only rarely 6 handed.

As always, I hate the push - Because you don't get much and your coin flipping or hating any call. Too early for panic. (But it's a matter of taste) - as any big raise is far from horrible.

Still, it's so crucial to adapt your decision to game conditions. Any posts that blindly say push is a good play are going to be running into too many bad situations IMHO.

gl

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
Coincidenatally, I was read Skalansky's book and his "system" and this would be an easy push under these parameters. Why not push here?

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason that Sklansky's system doesn't apply here is that your opponents are too loose. The assumptions behind his "system" assume opponents much tighter and stacks much deeper than the ones you're playing against.

FWIW, I fold preflop as well. If I had 1500 chips, I'd consider raising to 300 (but would probably still fold), and if I had 500 chips it'd be an easy push. You have an awkward in-between stack size relative to blinds and I play quite tightly here.

[betgo]

I don't see how pushing is related to game conditions. You are going to be called by JJ or better no matter what. In miniraising you have to look at the chances you will be called or raised depending on game conditions.

Thinking about it pushing may be best. Since you probably won't be called by 77-99, it is not that different from pushing with 99. There is probably less than a 10% chance you will be called by a higher pair. You lose about 700 chips in that case. You gain 150 if no one calls and about the same if you are called by 2 overcards. Therefore, it seems clearly EV+. This is the kind of play you remember when it doesn't work.

12xBB is an awkward stack to open raise with.

[chill888]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how pushing is related to game conditions. You are going to be called by JJ or better no matter what. In miniraising you have to look at the chances you will be called or raised depending on game conditions.



[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I can't respond to the second part because I'm having trouble getting past the part in bold. Relatively extreme example: I certainly am not going to push with 66 if there are two loose guys behind me that will almost certainly call with any 2 - add that to the chance someone runs into a hand and ...... yikes

The value in pushing with 66 is primarily the fold equity. You really don't want to be called by anything - except by a smaller pair of course.

[RacersEdge]

Let me throw this out there..

Again, reading Skalansky's book where he talks about the concept of raising in a tournamemt. He says you should raise when you don't mind a re-raise - by "don't mind" he means because

1) your hand is so strong you want the chance for a big win and you will call the raise

or
2) your hand is decent, but you don't mind folding it to a stronger hand

He uses 99 and AJs as example of hands NOT in either of these categories, because they are not real strong, but you'd rather not fold them without seeing a flop.

So now I'm thinking that 66 definitely falls in category 2 - go for the raise, but don't mind folding it (which is what I did).

(This is in the section where he talks about raising with J5o in the BB with a few limpers.)

Thoughts here?

[betgo]

Sklansky is talking about allins that are big overbets. The only hands you are worried about calling are overpairs. You can be pretty sure JJ-AA will call. There is not that much variation in how many of 77-TT will call.

[RacersEdge]

[ QUOTE ]
Sklansky is talking about allins that are big overbets.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm not talking about his "system" of when to go all-in. I'm referring to just the general concept of raising in tourney poker.