KJ--Let's do it street by street... [Archive]

J.R.

09-27-2004, 02:10 PM

Raises, unless the CO and blinds are real loose, in which case call is probably OK (although call doesn't feel great and raising still sounds good, especially if the 2 limpers are pretty loose). Hero could fold if the limpers are passive and tight preflop- (i.e. both have vpip <@20 and pfr<@5), but even in this spot your hand isn't too bad off. I might also be more inclined to limp if I had been getting out of line preflop and had been getting caught overplaying postflop as a consequence (thankfully, this rarely happens /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I would imagine I would raise the vast majority of the time in this spot.

Joe Tall

09-27-2004, 02:16 PM

What type of players are to act behind you? Button? Blinds?

Or do you just want me to answer: "it depends"

Peace,
Joe Tall

tpir90036

09-27-2004, 02:17 PM

I raise here much more often than I call if the game is passive... but I would be wary of UTG if he is solid as i have seen plenty of party players limp with hands like KQ/AJ in EP. Having some tight players in the blinds make this a more attractive play as well.

BottlesOf

09-27-2004, 02:18 PM

This hand was from yesterday, I don't really remember now /images/graemlins/frown.gif I probably didn't have great reads, as I was multiying. The table was typical party night time 5/10...

BottlesOf

09-27-2004, 02:20 PM

Well, I limped. The presence of two limpers and a poster reducing my chance of getting the button lead me to limp. Not sure about that...

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO (poster) raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero...?

J.R.

09-27-2004, 02:22 PM

I raise here much more often than I call if the game is passive...

I would be much more inclined to raise if the game was aggressive because of the greatly reduced chance that the limpers have much of a hand at all, much less a hand that dominates me.

tpir90036

09-27-2004, 02:29 PM

Good point. I guess I was thinking more about being able to dictate the betting post-flop, i.e. the hand might be easier to play if you raise.

-tpir

molawn2mo

09-27-2004, 02:32 PM

Nothwithstanding any reads which would alter this response... this looks to be a fairly easy fold for me, the CO post being the only enticement that would make me think about entering the fray and, if enticing enough, then a pf raise would be in order IMHO. With this easily dominated hand and 4 still to act behind me, I am loathe to get involved. Am I the wimp?

chson

09-27-2004, 02:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I limped. The presence of two limpers and a poster reducing my chance of getting the button lead me to limp. Not sure about that...

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO (poster) raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero...?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call. Hope that CO raises so you can reraise/cap to build the pot.

J.R.

09-27-2004, 02:44 PM

I don't think you're a wimp, but the idea that KJo is an easily dominated hand after 2 limpers and 3 folds is weak tight thinking, IMO. Hand values are situational, and just as in the context of a raised pot, where your statement is likely true, in a limped pot your statement is much more likely to be false. Maybe raising is a bit overzealous, but folding out of fear of domination is giving up too much.

J.R.

09-27-2004, 02:45 PM

calls on the flop.

Rico Suave

09-27-2004, 02:50 PM

holman3rd

09-27-2004, 02:52 PM

I raise. If the CO re-raises and MP2 caps, I probably fold.

I've got 9 outs (2 Jacks, 3 Kings, 4 Aces) to improve, but they probably aren't all clean, and the Ace could result in a split pot. Still, I'm getting 9 to 1 to just flat-call, but I want more info on what the CO and MP2 hold, so I raise.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's probably why I don't venture above 5/10.

BottlesOf

09-27-2004, 02:56 PM

Heh. Well, looks like I"m kind of 0/2. I saw a big pot and a chance to thin the field and increase my chances/clean up my K etc. I raised...

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO (poster) raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, BB calls, UTG folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.20 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero...?

Trix

09-27-2004, 02:56 PM

With the extra blind I raise. Else I probably limp more than I raise.

Trix

09-27-2004, 02:58 PM

Raise, free card, limit field, blabla.

holman3rd

09-27-2004, 02:59 PM

Check and fold, my guess is that CO has AK for the straight, or QQ for the set.

Trix

09-27-2004, 02:59 PM

Checks, you dont mind him checking much.

J.R.

09-27-2004, 03:01 PM

checks the turn.

Rico Suave

09-27-2004, 03:01 PM

Boom Boom:

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K, J. CO posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO (poster) raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) J, Q, T (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, BB calls, UTG folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.20 BB) 2 (4 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero...?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check

BottlesOf

09-27-2004, 03:06 PM

YES! Got a street right, I checked...

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO (poster) raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, BB calls, UTG folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.20 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

River: (11.20 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero

caseycjc

09-27-2004, 03:11 PM

I didn't get a chance to respond pre-flop but this is exactly why I hate playing this hand out of position. If I was to play this hand I would raise and reraise hoping to buy the button but I don't like playing this "stuck in the middle" like this in the first place. OK so now what? From the betting so far I doubt anyone has AK with the exception of the CO. If I am in this far I would raise here in hopes of isolating the field. Chances are you will lose the blinds and perhaps even UTG. You will probably be going to war with the CO but you do have sufficent pot odds to continue. So in short I would now raise knowing I was taking this to the river.

Rico Suave

09-27-2004, 03:15 PM

butters

09-27-2004, 03:22 PM

Folds. MP2 bet the Q-high flop and called two back to him. Now he's betting into 3 players after the obvious draw(s) missed. I'd be surprised to see him betting worse than a pair of queens here.

Trix

09-27-2004, 03:29 PM

Calls, someday you will take it down /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Trix

09-27-2004, 03:31 PM

Kinda missed that you didn´t raise preflop, so I´ll change mine to call flop.

DesertCat

09-27-2004, 03:33 PM

I'd be surprised to see him betting worse than a pair of queens here.

I think you'll be surprised more than one in eleven times...

BottlesOf

09-27-2004, 03:52 PM

Everyone seems to be saying call, and this street surprised me most. Can you or someone articulate why this is prefferable to raising the flop?

BottlesOf

09-27-2004, 03:55 PM

Well I mucked to the river bet, and I'm not sure about it. While the odds looked favorable, I realized I wasn't closing the action and that raised how often I had to be good by some points, and I just didn't like my second pair:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO (poster) raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, BB calls, UTG folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.20 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

River: (11.20 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero folds, CO calls, BB raises, MP2 calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 16.20 BB
Main Pot: 16.20 BB, between MP2 and BB.

BB did this on a total bluff with 49, and MP took it down with a pair of Queens

J.R.

09-27-2004, 04:06 PM

Its tough to imagine a legit raising hand that doesn't crush you on this flop (= a likely 3-bet), and the flop is the type to hit lots of limping hands such that its likely you are behind and/or subject to multiple redraws if best or if you improve, your hand isn't too super as your outs aren't clean and you may be drawing almost dead- you kings aren't likely outs and your jacks may not be good as well if somebody flopped a straight and you chop with any K if an A comes and you aren't likely to get the hands you would like to fold to fold by raising (i.e. you aren't folding a flush draw and you aren't cleaning up your K outs, unless you can fold both all aces and all nines).

Victor

09-27-2004, 04:12 PM

Calling is better because you have a good pair that might be best and a very good draw. You really arent worried about protecting your hand because you cant. 9's and A's are coming. Also, you dont have to protect your hand from overcards obviously.

So call and let others in, who are drawing thin thus maximizing when you hit. If it gets raised behind you I would definitely reraise then to build a pot. If you do hit your perfect card, A, J or 9 then raise on the turn since you are probably susceptible to redraws like 2 pair or the obvious flusch.

Victor

09-27-2004, 04:13 PM

I would go ahead and cap the flop with 3 other players since you are getting good odds at this point.

On the turn check and call.

elindauer

09-27-2004, 04:14 PM

Hero... folds. This is going to be a short hand.

Good luck.
Eric

Victor

09-27-2004, 04:17 PM

If MP2 is weak tight and attentive this would be a super sweet river raise bluff. It would look like you flopped a straight and but missed your turn checkraise.

Doubt it would work though so I would just call and expect to lose to probably 2-pair.

Victor

09-27-2004, 04:21 PM

Just peeked at the results and I see another reason to raise here. Actually considered it in the last post but didnt mention it because it seemed far-fectched. But obviously, the way things played out a river raise would have took it down here as it would have folded the CO pair of Queens.

I did not put him Queens since he did not bet the turn. It seemed like he had a missed draw so I figured there was no need to eliminate him.

butters

09-27-2004, 04:34 PM

I doubt it, unless I've got a read on MP2 as being overaggressive. Besides, we're not even closing the action here. This could go multiple bets before showdown.

sthief09

09-27-2004, 06:13 PM

Hero mucks...

sthief09

09-27-2004, 06:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I limped. The presence of two limpers and a poster reducing my chance of getting the button lead me to limp. Not sure about that...

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO (poster) raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero...?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise. the pot is big, and your hand will occasionally be best. in the event that your hand is not best, you have a pretty decent draw, and the board is rainbow. I think your hand is pretty marginal here, but I'd still raise.

BottlesOf

09-27-2004, 06:21 PM

serious? we gotta get some lag back into you dude...

sthief09

09-27-2004, 06:23 PM

I didn't realize that the hand was finished. I don't much like unsuited cards when 4 people are almost guaranteed to be in the pot with me.

I think you played the flop and turn well, but I'd probably call the river, out of pure confusion. I'm pretty sure you can beat the CO after he checked through the turn, and MP might've been betting a draw or something like J9 on the flop into the PFR.

spamuell

09-27-2004, 06:25 PM

I'm folding pre-flop here.

bisonbison

09-27-2004, 06:28 PM

I'm folding pre-flop here.

me too.

spamuell

09-27-2004, 06:29 PM

I think you played the flop and turn well, but I'd probably call the river, out of pure confusion. I'm pretty sure you can beat the CO after he checked through the turn, and MP might've been betting a draw or something like J9 on the flop into the PFR.

A couple of hours ago, I would have completely agreed with you, saw oesd + 2nd pair good kicker on the flop, 10sb pot, opportunity to make the field face two cold, lots of bettable worse hands here = raise. But JR makes a good point here. AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, TJs, QJs, you're completed screwed by so many raising hands from the CO here.

Trix

09-27-2004, 06:29 PM

I like the way you quote the board and then claim that its rainbow..

BottlesOf

09-27-2004, 06:40 PM

WTF PEOPLE!?!?!?

My VPIP is 14.9x!!! Help me out, don't make it worse /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

spamuell

09-27-2004, 06:44 PM

My VPIP is 14.9x!!! Help me out, don't make it worse

Forget limping with offsuit dominated cards in MP, it's not the way to go. Are you stealing enough?

BottlesOf

09-27-2004, 06:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you stealing enough?

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, ask SFer /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Seriously though, while this may be a fold pf (and I'm not saying I like that yet) saying KJ is "easily dominated" in a 3/4 handed unraised pot makes me cringe. This seems weak-tight...

jordanx

09-27-2004, 06:52 PM

Hand looks ok. It's odd everyone checked the turn. It's a big pot to win a third of the time w/ your open ender.

Might've considering raising pf if you thought you could push out the sb and bb, maybe even CO poster. 3 handed vs 2 limpers and position the rest of the way would make KJ a lot stronger.

Evan

09-27-2004, 07:01 PM

You finally got it above mine, congrats. Now try to get it above CDC's PRF.

J.R.

09-27-2004, 07:08 PM

Who said this?

3. In an unraised pot in middle to late position, AT and KJ are almost certainly profitable if you play resonably well. They are good hands. Not fantastic hands, but they are good and will show a long-term profit. This is true in a seven-handed pot as well as a three-handed pot.

answer (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=927113& Forum=f3&Words=%2BKJo&Searchpage=0&Limit=200&Main= 926330&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange=1 &newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyp rev=#Post927113)

MAxx

09-27-2004, 07:27 PM

i limp with kjo from mp after typical party limpers. i would not open limp of course, i would open raise. to me your pf action looks good to me. that doesnt mean that its right, just looks good to me.

i would call flop, and check turn.

river is a toss up, not really convinced either way. honestly I would call sometimes and somtimes fold. in this spot, i would probably be more inclined to fold b/c i wasnt closing. again, this is my playing.... not necessarily optimal play.

Danenania

09-27-2004, 08:25 PM

Pre-flop: I'd usually limp, sometimes raise, rarely fold.

Flop: Usually raise

Turn: Usually check

River: Usually fold

molawn2mo

09-28-2004, 04:49 PM

J.R.... appreciate your input and logic. I am in that stage of player development where I have taken my general card-playing skills developed over many years and honing those skills by reading 2+2, its books and posts. As a reletively new hold'em player, I wonder if you or any others have a reply to the following:

1. Are there any common growing pains notwithstanding issues of bankroll that are easily noticable in the stages of development of a player. This may be better asked as follows, are there general stages of development (like the stages of grief after losing a loved one) that are common to all/most players embarking on the journey of more serious play?

2. I wonder about the following statement which I have found to be true in poker as well as other endeavors and that is:

Shortly after reading a book or studying a post or any other manner of consciously trying to improve ones game or thinking or whatever, I find that my play drops off significantly; that is to say that I feel as if I lose the feel for the game and am playing on a level that is contrary to what I consider my game. This concept of dropping off, at least as it relates to this writer, after formally "learning something new" is consistant with my entire life experience whereas as a child learning tennis, as an example, I would learn how to "chip and charge" and thereafter would tend to lose matches because I would force the "chip and charge." Until the "chip and charge" was incorporated into my "game," the unconscious game, that learning experience was detrimental to my game (I would lose matches). Now I realize that this, the tennis example, is results oriented and I believe that I fully understand the concept of forgetting about the short term results as a gauge of tennis and poker development, I was just wondering whether you or any others had similar feelings.

In beginning this reply I really did not know where it was leading me and I think that I am going to post same in the Psycholgy Forum.

Again, thanks for your input.

tolbiny

09-28-2004, 05:05 PM

"If it gets raised behind you I would definitely reraise then to build a pot"

Victor-
I disagree with you here- for every caller +raiser on a board like this your draw loses a lot of value. Even when you hit your A you can expect to chop fairly often (and also lose to the flush) when you hit your 9 you chop and also sometimes lose to AK (or the flush). When you hit your non club jack you are often good, but will get little action on remaining hands.
I think your draw is weakened by each additional player, and more so by a raiser, i would not be three betting the flop here.

J.R.

09-28-2004, 05:11 PM

1. The passive -> aggressive and tight -> loose and then somewhat tapering back is something I have gone thru and is something I think is necessary in the development of most players. Ray (http://www.twoplustwo.com/zee2.html) thinks so as well.

2. This is exactly my experience. Its always been a two steps forwad, one step back kind of development for me. I can only read and be told so much. I need trial by error and experience to both 1) understand and 2) correctly apply a lot of what I learn, and finding how to correctly do something is in many ways a finding out how and when not to do something.

Good luck with your journey.