Question for those with <19.5 VP$IP

[ChicagoTroy]

I've had a heck of a time calculating which hands you're throwing away that I don't. Can folks with low VP$IP post what they do with their small pairs and unsuited connectors? Also, anybody who has tightened up to this range from a looser style, if you could post what changes you made it would be appreciated.

[krubban]

my VP$IP is at 16.38 although my sample is small with only 6500 hands. I really don't like playing offsuited connectors like QJ and JT and when I do it is almost always in late position.

Small pocket pairs i generally fold if i'm the first one in and I don't expect 4-5 callers behind me. I preferably want 1-2 callers before me if im sitting mid to late position before i decide to limp in with them.
The same goes with small suited connectors down to 45s, I want at least 2 callers before me to enter the pot with those.
ATo and KJo I really dont like either and tend to muck them in early position if the table is a bit aggressive. I like to play them from late position though.

But these calling standards may vary quite a lot if i'm sitting at a good table then small pockets and small suited aces becomes playable UTG.

I would like to hear if someone with quite a lot of hands can tell me if it is worth it to play JTo in late position because as it is now I almost alway fold it.

I have only been playing since may though and recently made the jump to 2/4 which probably tightened me up a bit since i'm not quite used to the 100$ swings that seem to occur every session /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[challenger84]

I'm guessing you play too many unsuited broadways in early position, i.e. KJ, QJ, K10... that kind of crap needs to be thrown away in the first few positions.

[adamstewart]

Have you read SSH? Just stick to Miller's guidelines. (I usually use the "Tight" starting hands, if I remember correctly).

I don't have my stats here, but I think my VP$IP is around 17% (at mainly $2/$4).

FIRST AND FOREMOST, don't cold-call 2 bets preflop, except AQs, AJs, and KQs. Otherwise, you're folding or re-raising. (I also cold-call sometimes with with pocket pairs if there are already a lot of callers, with not much chance of a reraise).

TIGHTEN UP IN FRONT, early position, I stopped playing hands like KJo, QJo, K10o, Q10o .... I also fold pocket 6's or less.

But again, this is all right out of SSH.

Hope this helps...

Adam

[aces up]

I was under the impression that around 20% of poker hands were playable from any position, and at the lower limits where people are looser, you could play a little more. Am I wrong on this fact...if not, isn't having a VP$IP &lt; 20 more detrimental than helpful, since you may be throwing away winning hands too much?

[challenger84]

no

[ChicagoTroy]

Actually, I fold all of those in early position. KT I'll play in the blinds only, KJ &amp; QJ late position.

[aces up]

there is a point at which tightening up is detrimental, right? Anyone know where that point is?

[ChicagoTroy]

If your VP$IP is under 20, you are folding some hands in some circumstances that could be profitable with solid post flop play. You are also reducing your variance, which is the primary benefit.

[ChicagoTroy]

I've read it and used the standards. While I haven't performed the calcuations, I would expect using a mix of tight and loose depending on current game texture, would yield a VP$IP of around 23%, certainly over 20%.

Using the tight standards regardless of the actual number of callers would probably yield a sub 20% VP$IP, but I haven't tried that because most tables I'm playing have 4+ players to a flop fairly often.

[raccon]

I play 0.5/1 @ Party at the moment and follow the advice of SSH tight pre-flop chart and my VP$IP is about 15% and from SB it's 25%.

[BottlesOf]

My VPIP is a hair under 15 /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I know a point or two or perhaps 3 higher could be more profitable, and this is something I'm working on.

However, people telling you to go over 20, I'd be weary of. While it may be possible to get away with this in micro games, you a) have to be a very good postlfop player b) won't beas profitbale in higher limits. Plus it's also very game dependant, so I wouldn't obsess with the figure.

[Schneids]

I played 6000 (measley) hands of $2/4 in January and had a VPIP of 24.3, and I didn't ever run into any arduous situations.

[ChicagoTroy]

I'm looser at that limit than you were. This is less about profitiability and more about what substantially tighter players are tossing as "unplayable." My bankroll was slashed earlier this month and I've been thinking about bankroll size, PF looseness, and increased variance. If I were moving into a higher limit with "only" 300 BB, I might consider lowering VP$IP until I had built a cushion big enough that I could play more marginal hands.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm looser at that limit than you were. This is less about profitiability and more about what substantially tighter players are tossing as "unplayable."

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I've played about 22,500 hands at .50/1 and 1/2 so far, with a VPIP staying steady around 18.5%. I generally stick to Ed's Tight Game strategy, whether the game is tight or loose. This is for a number of reasons -- lower variance, lack of confidence in my postflop play with marginal preflop hands, reducing the amount of thought I put into my play while multi-tabling. But most of all, it's because it's working fine for me so far (again, steady at 4 BB/100 at both levels).

It's just a case of whether you want to push smaller edges. Ultimately, playing certain hands in certain situations will be beneficial to you both monetarily and in your development as a thinking player. I'm just too lazy to really think much most of the time, so I'm always chucking bad offsuit broadways, offsuit connectors, and low suited connectors (exception being when I'm in the blinds). I'll usually limp with any pair unless the game has been exceptionally tight -- if that's the case and I'm in EP, I'm folding 22-55... in LP, I'm raising.

Alright, maybe I underestimated how much thought I do put into my pre-flop play. /images/graemlins/cool.gif But nonetheless, I think 19-20 is probably a more optimal VPIP but it requires excellent post-flop play while pushing small edges, something I'm not comfortable with myself.

- UW

[Nottom]

Without knowing anything about your play, I would say you:

Play too many offsuit big cards.
Play small pairs suited connectors and Axs from EP
Tend to coldcall too much.

Ways to fix it:
Avoid all offsuit cards worse than AJo/KQo (it is acceptable to open-raise some worse hands from close to the button)
Stop playing speculative hands from EP unless the table is very loose-passive (for small pairs, moderately aggressive is fine if not preferred)
Don't coldcall ... EVER!

Do this and your VPiP will drop and hopefully your BB/100 will go up.

After you have succesfully followed these simple steps you can then work on adding some of these things back to your game, but your first instinct should be to avoid all these things.

I don't consider myself particularly tight and yet my VPiP at 3/6 was around 17%.

[adamstewart]

True enough.

I, myself, have been working on increasing my VP$IP slightly.

For instance, I used to never play suited gappers. But now, if I'm in later positions with a number of callers ahead of me, I may play them.

I NEVER play UNsuited connectors/gappers, though.

[47outs]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing you play too many unsuited broadways in early position, i.e. KJ, QJ, K10... that kind of crap needs to be thrown away in the first few positions.

[/ QUOTE ]

That kind of crap needs to be thrown away in ANY position.

outs

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
That kind of crap needs to be thrown away in ANY position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Throwing away KJ from LP in an unopened pot is like throwing away money.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing you play too many unsuited broadways in early position, i.e. KJ, QJ, K10... that kind of crap needs to be thrown away in the first few positions.

[/ QUOTE ]

That kind of crap needs to be thrown away in ANY position.

outs

[/ QUOTE ]


it's not that hard to play KJo profitably from the button

[dogmeat]

Overall, offsuit hands like QJ, KJ and KT can get you in trouble if you don't know how to play them. For me, I know my expectation is small, but:

QJ .15BB per hand at $3/$6 this is 90 cents everytime it comes up

KJ .09BB per hand at $3/$6 this is 54 cents everytime it comes up

KT .06BB per hand at $3/$6 this is 36 cents everytime it comes up

Between just these three hands I make $1.80 every 110 hands, and if I am playing three tables with 60-hands per hour this relates to a total of $2.95 per hour. Does not sound like junk to me. If I find that the $5/$10 games play in a similar manner, these hands will be worth almost $5 per hour to me............. I think I'll play them at the correct times and keep that $5.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I've had a heck of a time calculating which hands you're throwing away that I don't. Can folks with low VP$IP post what they do with their small pairs and unsuited connectors? Also, anybody who has tightened up to this range from a looser style, if you could post what changes you made it would be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

the day you realize that 98s and ATo are only good in very specific situation is probably the day your VP$IP becomes lower.

I used to have a VP$IP over 20. I've recently got it down into the 16-17 neighborhood. For me, it was because I was raising in some sitautions that didn't call for raising. My PFR was 14-15. What is your PFR, beause maybe it's possible you're raising too much.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Pre-SSH, my V$IP was around 17.5% (26K hands). In my post-SSH hands it's 22% (12K hands). I play Party 2/4 and 3/6 (about 6K at each) and use the "loose" guidelines from SSH. I've always played all PP from all positions and show a profit over 38K hands with all PP but 22 (virtual break-even) and 77 (big loser, I noticed I was overplaying it a while back and haven't caught up yet). I show a profit with all Axs, except A4s, and I tend to play these from any position if unraised. KJo and QJo had been huge losers for me, and they are now a small winner (digging themselves nicely out of a big hole). I imagine I'll move to the "tight" standards when I hit higher levels, but Ed's "loose" standards are working very nicely where I am.

-Milo

[Pirc Defense]

My VP$IP is &lt;14%. I play $2/$4 at Paradise. If you have a VP$IP &gt;20%, I can't imagine what kind of crap you play.

[astroglide]

you are playing way too tight

[Pirc Defense]

[ QUOTE ]

you are playing way too tight

[/ QUOTE ]

astroglide,

Thanks for your response, but you're not in a position to judge whether I'm playing too tight. I'm not saying you're not a good player, or that you're not knowledgeable when it comes to poker, but simply that you can't make that judgement call about a player you know nothing about.

You ever lift weights at a gym? If so, have you ever heard some buffed up guy tell a perfectly good stranger that he's not lifting correctly? How the hell would buffy know? Does he know what kind of goals the guy has? Is he lifting for muscle size? Strength? Power? Cardio? Lifting for muscle size and lifting for power are almost completely different, so without knowing the stranger's goals, he can't possibly be in a position to tell him how to lift.

This analogy holds here because you don't know how I play. Maybe I am not a strong player? Maybe K9s on the button is a disaster for me.

If I were the world's greatest player, loosening up would earn me more money. I'm not the world's greatest player.

However whatever else I think of Sklansky, I do assume he knows a little about poker, and I tend to play about the number of hands I've read him to recommend. I can't be too far off, even when I'm playing Miller-esque loose games.

I think a lot of players that play &gt;20% are making some loose calls for reasons other than thinking ALL of their pre-flop decisions are +ev. I think some of them either get bored or don't understand pre-flop play as correctly as they think they do.

Then again, I'm barely staying afloat so maybe I could loosen up a bit, but I don't think it's the answer.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing you play too many unsuited broadways in early position, i.e. KJ, QJ, K10... that kind of crap needs to be thrown away in the first few positions.

[/ QUOTE ]

That kind of crap needs to be thrown away in ANY position.

outs

[/ QUOTE ]


it's not that hard to play KJo profitably from the button

[/ QUOTE ]

Screw that it's profitable in EMP in most games.

[astroglide]

it's an objective judgement. if you said your vpip was 30%, i'd say you were playing way too loose. 14% is giving away money that you don't need to. i think 16% is the profitable tighty mcwhitey minimum to the point where it's not worth mentioning how much money they're giving away.

[Danenania]

Everyone should also consider that playing multiple tables makes it hard to get the reads required to play as many hands as well. I think there are a lot of marginally profitable hands in the 16%-20% range that just can't be taken advantage of without strong reads.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]

Everyone should also consider that playing multiple tables makes it hard to get the reads required to play as many hands as well. I think there are a lot of marginally profitable hands in the 16%-20% range that just can't be taken advantage of without strong reads.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent point. I approve this post.

[TexMo]

From the 30/60 Party Players that I have over 5k hands for most of the winners (greater than $100 an hour avg) play 24.89 - 38.63 % of the flops. I do not know what that turns into for VP$IP but they can play post flop like nothing else /images/graemlins/smile.gif

TexMo

[Pirc Defense]

[ QUOTE ]
it's an objective judgement.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I don't think it can be. If Phil Hellmuth plays &gt;30% VP$IP, would you tell him he's too loose? I'm guessing you wouldn't, because you know of Phil and probably think he's a fastastic poker player with absolutely phenomenal hand-reading skills (whatever else you think of him.) His results speak to this.

You don't know me at all. Raising my VP$IP appreciably, even to around 20%, could be disastrous to my bankroll.

FYI, I've posted here before asking 1) am I too tight, and 2) if so, what hands would I start playing that I'm not now? Wasn't too popular of a thread and the answers didn't provide the magic bullet I was hoping for, and were mostly of the "play more connected suitors and small pairs" type that I feel are incorrect without position and number of players.

Right or wrong, I pride myself in playing disciplined poker. This doesn't mean I won't sneak a pair of two's in UTG if it's a loose passive game, but then this is correct. About the only place I think I would be playing too tight is on the button or in the cutoff, where I sometimes shy away from hands like QJo and K9s and their ilk. I also very rarely play against a non-steal raiser.

Anyhoo, unless you know the player, it's hard to know whether they are playing correctly preflop based solely on their VP$IP numbers, unless it is clearly too high or too low. I don't think ~14% VP$IP is too low. Maybe when I get better post flop I will loosen up a bit.

[astroglide]

regardless of how well somebody plays post-flop i think they are losing money if they are putting money in preflop with 30% of their hands in a full ring game.

it is true that some people may not be able to "handle" playing more hands, but that doesn't make the statement that their vpip is too low any less true - it just appends the statement that their game needs to rise to that level too. everybody can improve their game, including people with the right ranges of vpip.

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
From the 30/60 Party Players that I have over 5k hands for most of the winners (greater than $100 an hour avg) play 24.89 - 38.63 % of the flops. I do not know what that turns into for VP$IP but they can play post flop like nothing else /images/graemlins/smile.gif

TexMo

[/ QUOTE ]

how the heck do you log 5k+ hands with ANYONE at the party 30 game?

[eric5148]

[ QUOTE ]
If Phil Hellmuth plays &gt;30% VP$IP, would you tell him he's too loose? I'm guessing you wouldn't, because you know of Phil and probably think he's a fastastic poker player with absolutely phenomenal hand-reading skills (whatever else you think of him.) His results speak to this.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, bad example. Have you read Hellmuth's book? I'd be very hesitant to say that Hellmuth is a fantastic limit holdem cash game player.

[ QUOTE ]
About the only place I think I would be playing too tight is on the button or in the cutoff, where I sometimes shy away from hands like QJo and K9s and their ilk. I also very rarely play against a non-steal raiser.


[/ QUOTE ]

QJo and K9s are very playable from LP in unraised pots. These are the type of hands that astroglide assumed you were folding incorrectly. I agree. It's nothing personal, just advice from winning players.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyhoo, unless you know the player, it's hard to know whether they are playing correctly preflop based solely on their VP$IP numbers, unless it is clearly too high or too low. I don't think ~14% VP$IP is too low. Maybe when I get better post flop I will loosen up a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's true that those marginal hands I just mentioned are more profitable for the better postflop player. But so is every hand. Pocket aces are more profitable for better postflop players because they know how to extract the most from them, and fold when they should. My point is, if your a winning player with 14% VPIP, then you could be more of a winner with 16-17%.