Is this why TPTK is bad? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Mikey2k4

09-27-2004, 05:59 AM

Something is screwy with the converter with all-in's on Paradise. Have to tell him about that.

ANYWAY:

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($6.17)
UTG ($6.50)
Hero ($22.85)
MP1 ($27.10)
MP2 ($17.20)
CO ($14.80)
Button ($29.55)
SB ($23.92)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG raises to $0.5, Hero calls $0.50, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button raises to $1.5, SB (poster) calls $1.40, BB folds, UTG calls $1, Hero calls $1.

Flop: ($5.75) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)

SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $2, Button raises $28.05 (all-in), SB folds, UTG calls $5 (all-in), Hero calls $19.35 (all-in)

Turn: ($20.95) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)

River: ($20.95) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)

Final Pot: $20.95
Main Pot: $20.95, between UTG, Hero, MP2, Button and SB. > Pot won by Button ($20.95).

Results in white below: 
UTG has Qc Qh (two pair, kings and queens).
Hero has As Kd (full house, kings full of aces).
Button has Ad Ac (full house, aces full of kings).
Outcome: Button wins $20.95. 

With a little bit of time and in retrospect, I really shouldn't have called. I should have put the button on JJ, KK, AA, AK, AJ, or QT. (Chime in if there's something I'm missing.) I only beat AJ (although I would ultimately have beat QT). I chop with AK, and I need miracle runners for quads to beat anything AA or KK. For the JJ, I have four outs.

Merely an illustration of why TPTK and getting married to your hand is bad. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Live and learn, I guess.

Poker Jon

09-27-2004, 08:08 AM

It helps if you can read your hand.

You had top 2 pair - not TPTK.

Anyway, as for the call - with the size of the overbet, I would put my opponent on more of a drawing hand and certainly not AA. I think if you fold this hand too many times, you will be -EV overall.

I would probably call here as top two pair on the flop is something you can't really fold until you play deeper money.

Cheers,

Jon

Ghazban

09-27-2004, 09:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I should have put the button on JJ, KK, AA, AK, AJ, or QT. (Chime in if there's something I'm missing.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that the button reraised a 5x raise before the flop (to a total of 15x), do you really think he has QT or AJ? JJ isn't really a reraising hand, either, in my opinion, but without a read on the player, I suppose its possible. I think you can definitely rule out QT and AJ, though, unless the guy is a total maniac.

At these limits, I wouldn't be surprised to see the button turn over A /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif for top pair with the royal flush draw at least as often as he has AA so you'd probably be losing money in the long run if you fold here.

GimmeDaWatch

09-27-2004, 10:55 AM

Top 2 pair is usually more or less impossible to fold. If ever you were give some reason, however, this is the spot. Most players will not play a set of Aces this way, but the re-raise Preflop gives it away. AA,KK, or AK and its lookin pretty ugly.

Mikey2k4

09-27-2004, 03:00 PM

OK, maybe I was a bit results oriented in putting him on AA, KK, or AK. (Considering that two aces are already accounted for, the odds of him having AA are even smaller, right?)

I'll continue to call his all-in if such a situation ever comes up again.

And yeah, after posting this, I was like, "I had top two pair, not TPTK!" Somehow I associate AK with getting TPTK, and the top two pair is even stronger than TPTK. It was a brain fart when posting - I knew what I had when I was playing.

Oh, and how'd you folks like UTG's pocket Queens? I guess he had the straight draw and the fourth queen...

JohnG

10-01-2004, 09:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OK, maybe I was a bit results oriented in putting him on AA, KK, or AK. (Considering that two aces are already accounted for, the odds of him having AA are even smaller, right?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Mathematically maybe, but maybe not in the given situation. UTG raises 5X BB preflop. UTG +1 calls. Button faces a call for less than 10% of relevant stacks in good position relative to button and also relative to raiser. Instead of calling, he decides to re-raise after 2 players have indicated good hands. And not only that, but he re-raises a small amount less than the pot size. I would say you will see KK or AA more often than not there. Fold preflop.

flawless_victory

10-01-2004, 10:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I should have put the button on JJ, KK, AA, AK, AJ, or QT. (Chime in if there's something I'm missing.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that the button reraised a 5x raise before the flop (to a total of 15x), do you really think he has QT or AJ? JJ isn't really a reraising hand, either, in my opinion, but without a read on the player, I suppose its possible. I think you can definitely rule out QT and AJ, though, unless the guy is a total maniac.

At these limits, I wouldn't be surprised to see the button turn over A /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif for top pair with the royal flush draw at least as often as he has AA so you'd probably be losing money in the long run if you fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]
this entire thread is hysterical..
the above quoted post is the best part...
people folding AK pre-flop in a nickel ante game... get real