If you look closely, a theme emerges

[Azhrarn]

Two AK hands from tonight's session.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed). First orbit. UTG seems aggressive from the few hands I've played so far.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

For reasons that are unclear to me now, I decided to wait until the turn to raise.

Turn: (7.66 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>...

That's not a good sign.

Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">BB caps</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

And that's worse.

River: (19.66 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

And that's just odd.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed). No reads.

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: (7 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, Button folds.

At this point, I was putting him on a weak two-pair or bluff or semi-bluff. I decide to wait until the turn to decide what to do.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

That didn't work very well.

River: (10.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

Thoughts? I felt my play was questionable in several spots in those two hands.

[sthief09]

what when through your head during the second hand? and raise the flop in the first hand


EDIT: I actually didn't realize you turned a flush draw and rivered a flush in hand 2

[nepenthe]

In Hand 1, this is not the time to wait for the turn. Raise the flop now with what is likely the best hand. You do not want to give 2-outers a cheap look at the turn.

Hand 2: No better hand is folding to your turn raise. I would just call the turn and raise the river.

[joker122]

1: Raise the flop. I think you can fold to the cap on the turn.

2: I probably raise the flop here also (theme) because it's very rarely trips and you won't be 3 bet. Don't raise the turn - he's not folding.

[Azhrarn]

I agree that raising the flop is the standard play in these two situations, but I thought I'd type a quick argument on why raising the turn might be a viable alternative here.

Let me start with hand 2, because I think it's a stronger case. It's not a big pot, and sb trys to show strength by betting out. With great overcards and a backdoor flush draw, I don't want to fold. That leaves call or raise. With AK, I'm not too worried about the button staying in with overs, so I don't feel the need to raise to pressure him. I also minimize my money commitment if the button comes to life with a medium pocket pair or trips. A call also minimizes my money commitment if I decide to fold on the turn (which I may or may not do if the turn bricks.)

So the button folds and the turn card helps me. The turn question becomes call or raise. If I assume I will not get 3-bet on the turn or bet into on the river, raising is clearly superior. I can check behind on the river if I miss my outs or get an extra bet in if I hit. I'm not folding any better hands, but I do charge a straight draw a little more (vs. raising the flop and betting the turn.) I'm not too upset if a bluff folds, but it's certainly not a given that weaker overcards will fold to the raise. The removal of the previous assumptions certainly complicates things, but I thought it likely I would not get 3-bet on the turn. How likely? I don't know.

Hand 1, eh, screw it, this has taken me too long already, and quite frankly I don't think I should have waited for the turn to raise. I had a vague idea of not wanting UTG to fold his pocket pair right away, and making BB face two big bets instead of two small bets in case he flopped a pair. Why I thought these were important considerations I have no idea...

[Azhrarn]

Hand 1, UTG made a nice river check with his pocket aces, spoiling BB's trap attempt w/Qd5d.

Hand 2, SB had Th3h, which made sense afterwards, but it was not what I was expecting.

Two things waiting for the turn to raise does: it makes your mistakes more costly (if you're wrong about the relative strength of your hand), and you forego a chance to gather info about your opponent's hand.