weird KJs hand

[Diplomatdcm]

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO calls, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (5 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO folds, BB folds.

River: (7 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

[mmcd]

I think calling the flop there is terrible.

This post reminded me of someone who once played KJ similarly:

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">5 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Results: Hero has Kc Kd (one pair, kings).
CO has Jc Ks (straight, king high).
Outcome: CO wins 7.75 BB.

[Diplomatdcm]

getting 9-1 with about 4 outs?

[Softrock]

How do you get 4 outs? I could see 3 Kings, 2 for the backdoor flush, and maybe one or less for the backdoor straight - what combination of outs are you figuring adds up to 4? And your actual odds are about 10.75 to one if you indeed have four outs so you have to be counting on implied odds. Also, some of your outs are runner-runner requiring you to call any turn bets as well. I think calling here is a stretch.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
getting 9-1 with about 4 outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Four outs (which sounds about right) doesn't give you the immediate odds that you need on a 9-1 shot. If you were drawing to say a gutshot on an unpaired rainbow board, you would definitely want to call for that price since the implied odds situation is very favorable. Here, your outs are murky or involve runner-runner draws, so I don't think that you get your price.

[Diplomatdcm]

3 kings, about 2 outs cause sometimes they are no good
1 for a backdoor flush
1 for a backdoor str8
= 4 or is this fuzzy math?

[bugstud]

If a Jack is ever good here on the turn once in a while, then maybe it works?

[JasonP530]

Dont forget those times you hit a J, and pay off his Q.

[random]

Preflop call is pretty bad. I'd probably fold 50% of the time and raise the other half, depending on how the table is playing.

Also, you have to call bets on the turn if you pick up an actual draw. You got lucky and hit one of the best cards in the deck. It's a shame you bet and risked a raise from MP3 to knock out the people who would be giving you better odds to hit. You also may have scared hands away that would have called MP3 but not you since you just woke up, which usually means strength. You don't have a real hand yet on the turn and as pretty as your draw looks, it won't get there enough and all three opponents won't fold around enough to make a bet profitable.

[Softrock]

No that's not fuzzy math. I actually agree with discounting some of your outs. Too often we think of anything we could possibly hit as an "out" which of course is not true. I still, however, do not think you were getting sufficient odds to call. On the other hand "Nice hand, Sir!"

[MrGo]

Easy fold on the flop

[Diplomatdcm]

lol, yeah i play goot, not i was not sure if it was sufficent odds, but i figured it was close enought, if i did go runner runner, i could get at least 2BBs on the river, considering these players affinity for over playing their and paying off on the river.
Dave

[Diplomatdcm]

how often you think a K is good? how often do I get 2+ bets on the river? I don't think it is an obvious call but i think it is at least very close.
Dave

[samdash]

I sometimes find myself justifying calls like that on the flop too, when I'm on tilt.

[nykenny]

i usually give up on the flop unless it's a raised pot and i am in a favorable position in relation to the bettor (aggressor)...

and when i notice others who make this play (calling), i'd usually give them a note of "peeler"...

just a thought,

Kenny

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
how often do I get 2+ bets on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

definitely not all the time.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, you have to call bets on the turn if you pick up an actual draw. You got lucky and hit one of the best cards in the deck. It's a shame you bet and risked a raise from MP3 to knock out the people who would be giving you better odds to hit. You also may have scared hands away that would have called MP3 but not you since you just woke up, which usually means strength. You don't have a real hand yet on the turn and as pretty as your draw looks, it won't get there enough and all three opponents won't fold around enough to make a bet profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

very good analysis

[The Bear]

I don't like your turn bet. You aren't going to fold all 3 players and MP3 could raise, forcing the other two players to call two cold. Also, when MP3 calls and the others fold, you have a difficult river decision when you miss.

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop call is pretty bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just a ridiculous statement. I don't know how this found its way in to an otherwise quality post.

[1800GAMBLER]

Again these replies are wrong, do you people read Ed Miller's book? While this is a VERY close decision everyone who is saying EASY FOLD/Awful call/it's not close is very wrong.

Firstly, your king is good here nearly 100% of the time, KQ a lot of the time raises preflop k5 k3 are slim chances while KJ KT 99 88 77 66 are all possible.

Therefore your jack is also good a very small percentage of the time (ignore this crap about hitting your jack and paying off to his queen, you wouldn't pay off unless it was profitable to call down because of his possible hand range), the calls you make when you have the jack would be making you money else you'd fold, simple.

Your backdoor straight draw isn't very strong, it's not worth one out anyhow. Your flush is.

So, 2.5 outs for your kings.
0.5 for your jack.
0.5 for your backdoor straight.
1 for your backdoor flush.

~4.5 outs. Nice call.

Also and very importantly and VERY often over looked you'll get a free card on the turn about 40% of the time making your outs worth about 6.

[Diplomatdcm]

I did not really like the turn bet either, but with an OEstr8 flush draw, I want to put money in somehow, and I have noticed that some players will fold middle pair etc. here if you just bet out, but if you CR they assume you are making a move and call, on the other hand i might be full of [censored].
Dave

[Diplomatdcm]

1st, i am sorry i cannot see how PF is bad on any level, I have suited broadway cards, I would much rather limp, in sudo EP, and have people limp or even raise with dominated hands than raise and knock out the hands I want in/play against hands that dominate me. Your limp will enourage people to limp with crap, just a thought.

On the turn yeah the bet sucks, i agree, check call?

[Diplomatdcm]

I think it is a lot, but I might be wrong.

[Ulysses]

I don't like the flop call. I like the turn bet less.

[Diplomatdcm]

I think we can all agree this is horrible, sooo what is the best line, check call, check raise if the feild is big?

[bobbyi]

Yes, when you make a hand and it is best you will often pick up multiple bets. However, half of your "outs" are to an overcard and against three or four opponents (at the time of your flop call, there is one guy behind you who may or may not call), that will often not end up winning the pot for you. You estimate a king as winning two thirds of the time (since you call it two outs), and I think that is optimistic. When it loses, you are going to lose some money on the turn and river. Your other outs are to backdoor draws that won't always come in. Sometimes you are going to pick up a flush or straight draw on the turn and multiple bets will go in and then you will miss on the river.

While you are right that when you make the best hand you will pick up some bets, I think this is offset by the times you will lose future bets when you don't make the best hand. This does not look like an implied odds situation. You don't appear to be in such a bad reverse implied odds situation that you need a big overlay on the flop call. However, you aren't even getting immediate odds to call for four outs, and there is the small risk of a raise behind you on the flop.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
Again these replies are wrong, do you people read Ed Miller's book?

[/ QUOTE ]

i did read his book and liked it a lot. but i didn't know it is a requirement /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[random]

I'm of the camp that never open-limps... except maybe a small pocket pair if the table conditions are right... but that's another thread. Especially in EP, you end up doing stuff like check/call on a Qhxx flop, which doesn't really appeal to me. Do you limp with AK to encourage other people to limp? I'm not a great player, so try to avoid spots like when I have KJ without position on anyone who is voluntarily putting money in playing a limped pot.

[JPolin]

Folding KJs in a limpy 15-30 Party game seems very -EV.

The implied odds for hitting a flop are clearly present, though the flop call (or should I say chase) is marginal at best.

I'd say that the preflop was the best played part of the hand.