A mistake I made today that shows an important concept

[Justin A]

I played this hand terribly.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP3 ($65.55)
CO ($30.65)
Button ($43.40)
SB ($34.25)
Justin A ($79.05)
UTG ($48)
UTG+1 ($48.50)
MP1 ($39.10)
MP2 ($51.40)

Preflop: Justin A is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $1, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls $1, Button folds, SB completes, Justin A checks.

Flop: ($4) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Justin A checks, MP1 checks, CO checks.

Went for a check-raise here and failed, oops. In hindsight I think it's best to bet out here.

Turn: ($4) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets $1</font>, <font color="CC3333">Justin A raises to $5</font>, MP1 folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">SB raises to $33.25 (All-In)</font>, Justin A folds.

This is where the bigger mistake occured. This should not have been a raise, period. There was a 4 straight on the board, but I have a very strong draw that will beat the one card straight if I get there.

Final Pot: $42.25
<font color="green">Main Pot: $14, won by SB.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: $28.25, returned to SB.</font>

The concept that applies here is that you should not bet or raise when a reraise will make you puke. I had to give up this hand because I didn't quite have the odds to draw to my flush and straight draws. Had I just called and hit on the river, I most likely would have won a nice pot given that the villain most likely had a straight. Bleh, I'm gettin sick thinking about this hand.

Justin A

[DBowling]

Really? I think you played it fine. I dont think the villan pays you off if you hit your flush given the pot would have been a whopping $6. If you hit an 8, i dont think he pays you off either, if hes playing the board. Hitting a K... now thats where you get paid, but you only get paid from three of them.
So i like the raise here. Youll take down the pot a lot of times. If he raises you a reasonable amount, you have odds to chase.

[Tilt]

I think he overbet. I would looked to have been paid off by you even more. Since he has a straight, he needs to protect it with a big bet. Its probably not the nut straight, making it even more vulnerable. So he has to bet large enough to make it wrong for you to call and to scare away a gutshot nut straight/pair combo. Pot = 10 when it gets to him, so a raise of 5-10 is enough (making you now call 10 into a pot of 25).

WIth TJQ on the board and you are looking for the flush you should not raise like this. I think this is an example of taking aggressive play too far. There is a good chance that at least the oesd is out there, and he will know you have no flush and will likely call thinking his hand is as good as yours. Worst case (as you found) is the made straight is already out there. In either case you are not going to get the hands to fold by raising, so raising is a low EV play in my opinion.

I would look to sneak the free card and hope that the made straight slowplays it like a fool. The best hit would be the Kc, making a big straight for someone else. I think its better to hide your flush draw at this point, let them think you are calling with just a pair. I think the made straight will still give you action if it hits.

[schwza]

i also would have prefered a bet on the flop. say you do get your check-raise off successfully.... you check, villain bets 4, you raise to 14, and he calls. turn is a brick. now what? you've gotten half your stack (well, half of villain's stack) in, out of position, with a draw. not ideal.

if you bet and take it down, that's fine. if you bet and get called, that's fine - you won't have put in much money and your hand will be well disguised. you can still be flexible on the turn. and if you get raised, you reraise all-in and you're in pretty good shape (and may take it down).

(btw, worst case if you're all-in on the flop is that you're against A /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif, where you're 35% to win. against a set you're 40%).

[cornell2005]

i think the turn raise is wrong for a reasons that havnt been stated in this thread. (well kinda) its not just because i dont want to get reraised and have to fold my big draw. its because the "type" of hand you have drastically changed between the flop and the turn, yet you played it on the turn like you were still on the flop.

ok, so when would you raise the turn there. you would raise if you had a made hand that can get value off of another probable made hand. or you would raise if your draw was big enough with one card to go to justify making a large semi bluff. neither hold here. you would never want to make a big semi bluff in this situation, as you are folding out every single hand you beat, while keeping in hands that are ahead of you % wise. so you would either like to value bet, or call a bet. since he bets in front of you, you usually call. his bet was smaller than you would have liked, but whatever. if anything you could raise to like 3 dollars, but 5 dollars is the worst possible option.

i think the key point is that if you get called, your pair is useless. so when considering a raise, you should forget about your pair and play it only as a big draw. its kinda like having 3 pairs. here, you have 1 made hand and one drawing hand, but you have to be careful not to lump the strengths of these two hands together, as you are essentially only playing one or the other vs each of the different holdings he could have. overall, when that jack falls on the turn, you should be thinking about playing this hand for value. the opportunity was missed on the flop to play this hand like a big draw, so forget it. sure there is money to be made in this hand by making a semi bluff move on the turn, but there is far more money to be made by extracting value from worse made hands

[Tilt]

BK makes a good point, better stated than my attempt at the same.

A very common flaw I see among decent (not fishy) players learning to be aggressive is the tendency to over use the draw bet and semi-bluff moves. If you do this all the time it becomes so obvious and makes you very trappable. So you have to vary your play. Is this really the time to bet this like a big draw? Its not a flush and straigh draw. And its not a nut flush draw. And the pair coming on the turn is probably worthless, as BK points out. Although aggressive play should be your standard, there is a time and a place for passive play. I think this is such a time.

[jon_1van]

The problem with this hand is that you don't "crush" any hands that will raise here. Therefore going for the check raise is likely to get you involved in a pot with somebody that has the odds to be there, the advantage, or both. Therefore the check raise isn't gonna make you much money in the long run.

Betting out will help you lose less when you get called and don't connect on the turn. It will also help you take down the pot most often when the opponents don't like what they see.

[cornell2005]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with this hand is that you don't "crush" any hands that will raise here. Therefore going for the check raise is likely to get you involved in a pot with somebody that has the odds to be there, the advantage, or both. Therefore the check raise isn't gonna make you much money in the long run.


[/ QUOTE ]

he would love to get all in on the flop

[jon_1van]

kinda,
Doesn't he want to go all in first. This way a few higher flush draws will fold and he has a better chance to take down the pot right here.
It seems to me that if you let someone bet a few times they will have a hand that you really don't want to be up against (higher flush and set) but most of the time they will have something like a pair/overpair/two-pair or a naked straight draw.
Do you think that the additional money you might get out of a straight draw / or pair type hand makes it worth going for the check raise?