BAD BEAT STORY, or is it?

[ilya]

***** Hand History for Game 992283674 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:6114326 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Monday, September 27, 01:03:19 EDT 2004
Table Table 13878 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: mrzarembsky ( $800 )
Seat 10: MTown4321 ( $800 )
Seat 4: Sherby3 ( $800 )
Seat 1: snoop_lbc ( $800 )
Seat 6: Rebel_Rouser ( $770 )
Seat 5: crazykatlady ( $800 )
Seat 3: matthews41 ( $875 )
Seat 9: mgravelin ( $930 )
Seat 7: amsiegel1024 ( $640 )
Seat 8: KyleH681186 ( $785 )
Trny:6114326 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to mrzarembsky [ Kc Kd ]
MTown4321 folds.
snoop_lbc folds.
mrzarembsky raises [60].
matthews41 folds.
Sherby3 folds.
crazykatlady folds.
Rebel_Rouser folds.
amsiegel1024 calls [60].
KyleH681186 folds.
mgravelin calls [45].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kh, Ac, 2h ]
mgravelin checks.
mrzarembsky bets [200].
amsiegel1024 calls [200].
mgravelin calls [200].

....Do I have to make a bigger bet here or have I just lost all perspective?

[nuclear500]

Bet size seems fine, having two callers definatley puts the scare of another heart (that isn't an Ace) for you. If the turn isn't a heart, I'd push.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet size seems fine, having two callers definatley puts the scare of another heart (that isn't an Ace) for you. If the turn isn't a heart, I'd push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, I agree about the turn. It was a blank and I pushed about 550 into a 700+ pot. Both called.

[oscar057]

I like the bet after the flop and the push after the turn.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Yup, I agree about the turn. It was a blank and I pushed about 550 into a 700+ pot. Both called.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you end up in a set-over-set AAA vs. KKK situation, you lose your chips. There is nothing you can do. Unless you somehow manage to get to the river with a A/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif x/images/graemlins/heart.gif board, or something.

If the turn actually blanked (meaning no card that could allow for a broadway), then you have the second nuts, and your opponents are at best drawning to 9 outs. If they are both on the heart draw then they are only drawing to 7 outs. You should have no problem getting it allin on the turn, and if you lose, that's poker.

[reecelights]

It may be cliche, and you're probably not sure if one of the other two will bet, but I prefer a check-raise on the flop. Take the pot down early. Don't let them draw out on you. A check-raise shows more strength than a value bet and discourages people fishing on four-out draws.

[stupidsucker]

Id bet more preflop, but it probably doesnt change anything.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yup, I agree about the turn. It was a blank and I pushed about 550 into a 700+ pot. Both called.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you end up in a set-over-set AAA vs. KKK situation, you lose your chips. There is nothing you can do. Unless you somehow manage to get to the river with a A/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif x/images/graemlins/heart.gif board, or something.

If the turn actually blanked (meaning no card that could allow for a broadway), then you have the second nuts, and your opponents are at best drawning to 9 outs. If they are both on the heart draw then they are only drawing to 7 outs. You should have no problem getting it allin on the turn, and if you lose, that's poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. I have no problem whatsoever getting it all in on the turn when a real blank comes, I assure you.

[ilya]

After the flop action, the turn brought a spectacular blank, 6s. Naturally, I pushed my last 550 or so into the 750 pot, and both opponents called again. Amsiegel had bravely called with Ah3d, but mgravelin had 5h7h, and a heart came on the river completing his flush.
My first reaction was extreme irritation, but then I thought....'hmm, yeah, mgravelin's calls were pretty loose, but they weren't *that* bad considering that amsiegel kept making the pot sweeter with his calling station ways....perhaps in situations like this I should consider overbetting the pot on the flop to discourage my 2nd opponent from calling with a flush draw in case the first guy calls, or at least to charge him more since he'd prolly call anyway..."
Yes, a bigger bet might make one of them fold a 2nd best hand that he'd otherwise have called wtih...but that doesn't seem all that likely to me.
On the other hand, if I overbet the pot, the first guy calls with a drawing-slim hand, and the 2nd guy calls with a flush draw, the bigger pot will likely make it correct/less of a mistake for him to call again on the turn...so I'm not sure.

[adanthar]

If you really think there's a flush draw out there and want this pot right now, the correct play is probably to underbet the flop and overbet the turn. The flop underbet is to get a raise out of someone and try to fold the draw that way (of course, you want to be raised anyway), but it also keeps the pot small on the turn so you can push on a non-heart.

Honestly, though, I'd be too focused on how to get the most chips into that pot to worry too much about the draw. If they want to chase, good for them, because if I triple up here I will almost certainly take at least 2nd and I sure like the odds.