Was this too tight?

[ilya]

First hand of a Party $20, so everyone has 800. UTG minraises, two late position callers, the small blind folds, and I call in the BB with AhQh.
The flop is Ad7c2d. The pot is 135.
I lead out for 150. UTG (the preflop raiser) raises it to 425. Late position callers both fold. I also fold.
Was this too tight? Also...I'm pretty sure leading out was the right play, but maybe not?

[CrisBrown]

Hi ilya,

Easy fold vs. the raise on the flop. I'm not sure whether I'd have called it pre-flop though. As a general rule, I avoid calling into a raised pot with AQ, especially out of position. Yes, the pot odds were good (15:2) and yes, it was suited. But it's still AQ and AQ is too likely to be dominated in a raised pot. You hit a good flop, bet at it, and still had to fold. That's too often the case with this kind of hand.

Cris

[ddubois]

First hand of a Party $20

If it wasn't for this clause, I'd like your play alot more. I think you'll get shown A6, A9, AJ or JJ more often than AK in this particular circumstance.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
First hand of a Party $20

If it wasn't for this clause, I'd like your play alot more. I think you'll get shown A6, A9, AJ or JJ more often than AK in this particular circumstance.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking the exact same thing. I'm new to sngs, but it seems like every single one features at least 1-2 guys who are flinging their chips around with gay abandon very early on. If you happen to have a hand when one gets out of line, it gives you the opportunity to double up quick, and then you have the luxury of picking your spots the next few levels. I think I would have pushed to the re-raise. If he shows me AK or AA, so be it.

[JasonK]

Min raise on the first hand is a pretty weak play for AA or AK. The big re-raise on the flop smells of two pair or set. I would have folded.

[La Brujita]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi ilya,

Easy fold vs. the raise on the flop. I'm not sure whether I'd have called it pre-flop though. As a general rule, I avoid calling into a raised pot with AQ, especially out of position. Yes, the pot odds were good (15:2) and yes, it was suited. But it's still AQ and AQ is too likely to be dominated in a raised pot. You hit a good flop, bet at it, and still had to fold. That's too often the case with this kind of hand.

Cris

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you suggesting you would have to consider whether to call a miniraise four handed closing the action for 15 out of about 800 chips holding AQ suited? That is just absolutely crazy.

I mean this is an autocall to end all autocalls.

Tough decision on the flop, I have seen a lot of crap early in sit and gos. Would certainly be a call with a backdoor flush draw and the truth is I have just not played enough sit and gos recently to say fold or push. I would probably lean towards getting my chips all in here given pot odds and crap I have seen shown down.

[CrisBrown]

La Brujita,

[ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting you would have to consider whether to call a miniraise four handed closing the action for 15 out of about 800 chips holding AQ suited? That is just absolutely crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have your opinion and I have mine. I'd either reraise -- to narrow the field -- or fold. What I wouldn't do is call with what might well be a dominated hand. I'll take my strategy over yours 100% of the time.

Cris

[Aloysius]

Hi, just wanted some insight into why you would fold AQs pre-flop, when you're getting something like 7:1 to call off about 2% of your stack. Also, considering I like my odds with a premium type drawing hand, I'm not sure why raising to narrow the field makes sense.

I've definitely been in tough spots with a hand like AQ, out of position, where it's been difficult to play the hand out and I didn't know where I stood.

But in this instance, I would simply call to close the action, and play this hand for flush, trips, or 2-pair possibilities, and proceed with caution on any other board. Is that the wrong way to think about it?

Thanks.

Al

[CrisBrown]

Aloysius,

First, I don't operate on the my-opponents-are-idiots-until-they-prove-otherwise assumption that dominates discussion on this forum, and dominates the thought processes of most poker players (which is why most of them are losers). If I see a min-raise from EP, I suspect a big hand -- AA, KK, or AK -- because those are the hands with which an intelligent player would min-raise with from EP. I'd rather make that call with 87s than with AQs, because with 87s I'm likely to know where I stand on the flop. With AQs, I may simply end up pouring good money after bad, as ilya had to do here.

So that leaves reraising or folding as my options.

Reraising gives me the advantages of narrowing the field -- simplifying the post-flop analysis and leaving dead money in the pot -- and probably gaining some information about my opponent's hand. Also, a reraise adds at least some steal equity to my overall pot equity. That is, there is some possibility (however slight) that my opponents will fold to a reraise and I'll win the pot right now, whereas there is no possibility that they will fold to a call. If my opponent moves all-in behind me, then I know where I'm at, and I can fold at a minimal loss. If he simply calls, then unless everyone else calls behind him, my bet gained me some pot equity because of the dead money they've left behind.

However, in this situation, on the very first hand of a SNG, I'd be most likely to simply muck. I don't have any reads on my opponents yet, and AQ -- even suited -- simply isn't such a great hand that I'm going to worry about having lost the best opportunity the tournament will offer.

Cris

[La Brujita]

[ QUOTE ]
You have your opinion and I have mine. I'd either reraise -- to narrow the field -- or fold. What I wouldn't do is call with what might well be a dominated hand. I'll take my strategy over yours 100% of the time.

Cris

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising is another fine option but if you think folding is in any way better than calling I have no words other than good luck.

One thing to consider is a raise opens you up to a reraise and a call of 2% or so of your stack closes the action.

It is a bit incongruous to talk about raising to narrow the field when you mentioned the risk of domination in your opinion is very high and you have to fold to a reraise.

That being said, my point is not that a reraise is bad, just that it doesn't make sense if what is in your mind is a fold because of domination.

You still have the same problem of being out of position as well so I think the call is the best play.

[Aloysius]

Hi Cris, thanks for your response. Just wanted to point out that I never mentioned underestimating my opponents (perhaps another post in this thread?), rather noted that I would proceed with caution on the flop.

I guess I'd respectfully disagree with folding, though I understand it's very early in the tourney... I just think for such a small % of your stack, and great implied odds if you really hit the flop (and someone did have you dominated pre-flop), I would probably call. (I guess I, perhaps stupidly, trust my post-flop instincts.)

Your point about making post-flop play easier by re-raising pre-flop to isolate makes sense to me, and helps somewhat obviate position issues.

Thanks.

Al

[Aloysius]

Oh, didn't notice this post... in other words I basically agree with La Brujita /images/graemlins/cool.gif (Didn't mean to be redundant..)

Al

[CrisBrown]

Hi La Brujita,

[ QUOTE ]
Raising is another fine option but if you think folding is in any way better than calling I have no words other than good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take the luck, thanks.

I just don't see any reason to play AQs here. It's the first hand of a SNG. I have no information on my opponents or how they play. AQs is this spot is hardly such a golden opportunity that I'm giving up much by passing it. Lately, I don't play anything in the first round or two of a SNG, except for AA and KK. I'd rather wait, assess the field, and see where the weak spots are.

Obviously, if I had good notes on everyone at the table, then this changes. If I knew the EP min-raiser to be a loose-ragged player who's as likely to make that move on A8o as on AA, KK, or AK, then yes, I'd do exactly as you described, including pushing in over his reraise. But in the absence of such information, I'd rather just wait and see what develops.

Cris

[William]

I really don't like to get into this kind of discussions any more, but I am going to make a couple of remarks.

First I believe that considering to muck this hand for a small amount is horrendous. I also would consider a big raise to win the pot right there, but I believe that a call is the right move.

I also disagree with your analisys of what a mini raise UTG in the early stages of an SNG means. There is a HUGE difference between a mini raise when the blinds are 5/10 and when they are 100/200. In the later case, a mini raise is enough to induce many folds and if you are holding a big hand, and hoping for a reraise that doesn't come, you will still have narrowed the field. In the early stages of the tourney, a mini raise doesn't scare anybody, and if you are holding AA, KK or something like that, then you are a fool to miniraise, because if nobody reraises, you will be facing too many opponents and your big hand will probably lose.

So in this particular case, you should be thinking that a miniraise is not a big hand, but probably a hand that wants to see the flop without having to call a big raise to do so or hoping to find out if somebody is holding a big hand somewhere. My experience shows that you will be more often against Ax or small suited connectors than big pairs or AK. Sometimes, people also do that to feel the temperature of the other players sitting at that table. If I am wrong and I do run into a big hand, then I might bust out of the tourney, but I definitely have identified a weak player for the future.

William

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
I also disagree with your analisys of what a mini raise UTG in the early stages of an SNG means. There is a HUGE difference between a mini raise when the blinds are 5/10 and when they are 100/200. In the later case, a mini raise is enough to induce many folds and if you are holding a big hand, and hoping for a reraise that doesn't come, you will still have narrowed the field. In the early stages of the tourney, a mini raise doesn't scare anybody, and if you are holding AA, KK or something like that, then you are a fool to miniraise, because if nobody reraises, you will be facing too many opponents and your big hand will probably lose.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree minraising with a monster on level 1 is not a good idea. However, based on my (admittedly limited) experience, it is a common play at the $10 level.
Anyhooo...
I am surprised people have such strong feelings about folding vs. calling in this spot. Does it really make that much of a difference?

[CrisBrown]

Hi William,

Nice to see you again, my friend. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
In the early stages of the tourney, a mini raise doesn't scare anybody, and if you are holding AA, KK or something like that, then you are a fool to miniraise, because if nobody reraises, you will be facing too many opponents and your big hand will probably lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and I wouldn't min-raise with AA or KK here. But I wouldn't even consider min-raising with anything else in this situation either, and that's why I'd tend to read it for an oh-please-reraise-me bet.

As ilya said, I don't think you lose much in EV by just dumping AQs here. You can't win the tournament on this hand, but you could certainly lose it if you don't play it with extreme caution. With so many unknowns in play, I'd muck it, but that's just because I'd rather play the player than play the cards, and right now I don't know enough to play the player.

*shrugs*

Again, nice to see you again. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cris

[emonrad87]

I would reraise this min raise preflop everytime. I have played hundreds of these SNGs, and the chances that they're playing something like QT or Ax or KT or some other "looks nice but is crap" hand is very high. If they do have a monster hand, so be it, you've learned that they're poor players and you can use it on them next time. Otherwise you'll win big and be in great position for the rest of the tourney.

[poboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Aloysius,

If I see a min-raise from EP, I suspect a big hand -- AA, KK, or AK -- because those are the hands with which an intelligent player would min-raise with from EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually agree with most of your posts, this however just doesn't make sense. An intelligent player would not min-raise w/ the top 3 hands, why would they chance having their premium hand cracked. Especially early on there are so many fish willing to call 3-4BB with dominated hands, so you don't have to fear not making any money with your big hand. In general intelligent players don't min-raise, because it doesn't accomplish anything(thinning the field or building a big pot). A min-raise often means any K,any A,any suited or connected but rarely AA,KK,or AK. AQ is certainly worth T40 to see the flop, not much more though.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
You have your opinion and I have mine. I'd either reraise -- to narrow the field -- or fold. What I wouldn't do is call with what might well be a dominated hand. I'll take my strategy over yours 100% of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

Folding for 15 chips in this spot is just plain horrible. Choosing folding over calling here is terrible. Raising is a very valid option.

[Jason Strasser]

Cris,

It's easy to jump on someone when they are in a spot like this, but words can not describe how awful this advice is.

To say, 'The pot was raised, and AQ is nothing in a raised pot' is bullcrap. How much respect do you give UTG min raises in the early stages of a SNG? The fact that you are scared is weak tight. I have seen so many raises UTG in spots like this with hands like 66, A9s, etc. I am not trying to disrespect you in anyway, just the advice you gave on this hand. And that advice is genuinely horrible.

This is not a matter of my opinion versus your opinion. This is a strict matter of EV. You say you rather play the player than the cards--does that mean you fold AK too? I mean, an UTG mini raise *could* be AA or KK, right? Heck, might as well fold QQ and JJ too.

Here's a list of the types of hands you should be calling with in this spot: any pair, any suited ace, any suited connector 5-6 and up, any 2 broadway.

When I was a newcomer to 2+2 I really took your advice seriously, I'm going to have trouble taking it seriously again after reading this.

-Jason

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a list of the types of hands you should be calling with in this spot: any pair, any suited ace, any suited connector 5-6 and up, any 2 broadway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, really? You mean you would call here with something like KTo or QJo? Also, why would you call with Axs when you're out of position and are likely to have to fold on the flop if you flop a flush draw?

[RobGW]

Cris,

I have to disagree with you here along with everyone else. This is an easy call imo. However, I usually do like to hear what you have to say so don't stop posting.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Jason,

I'm sorry to have disappointed you. However, let me try to explain my reasoning. We may still disagree, but at least you will have a better peek into the mind of an imbecile if nothing else. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The cards are only one part of the overall situation in a given pot. This was specified to be the very first hand of a tournament. Your assumption is that this diminishes the threat of a min-raise from EP. I disagree with that assumption, because I don't know any of the players yet, and I don't assume my opponents are idiots until they prove otherwise. Instead, I assume they're reasonably good players until they prove otherwise.

So, I'm faced with a situation where someone whom I assume to be a reasonably good player, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, has min-raised from EP. To me, that has the smell of either a trap raise or a pot-building raise. If this player is indeed a poor player who will make this raise on A9o, then I've missed one opportunity. But if he is that bad, then he's also going to give me lots of other opportunities later.

Regardless, I don't lose much if any $EV by simply bowing out of this hand. Poker is a game of information, and at this juncture I don't have much. What I know is that I have AQs in the BB facing a min-raise and four callers (if I remember the original question correctly). But to me, that is a very incomplete poker problem, because it has no information about the players involved. If I simply call, I put 15 chips in the middle and I haven't done anything to clarify that information muddle.

I would rather reraise -- to thin the field, give myself some steal equity, and gain information -- or simply pass and wait until I have more player-specific information to work with.

As I've said, I don't consider AQs so great a hand that I'm unlikely to encounter a better situation at some later point in the tournament. It's not as if I'm passing on AA, which I might well not see again, and with which I'd want to extract as many chips as possible.

Many people don't play this way. Perhaps they play at sites and buy-ins where the opposition is reliably poor, and thus they're not worried about specific player reads. Perhaps they have extensive notes about most of the players they encounter, and thus have more information about this first-hand situation. Perhaps they multi-table and, as a rule, simply play their cards in a tight-aggressive style and let the favorable odds inherent in that style take care of their ROI needs. If any of these is true, then yes, by all means, call and take a flop rather than folding.

My opponents are not reliably poor. The question didn't specify any reads. And for me personally, because I don't multi-table, tight-aggressive applies to the overall table situation and not simply to the cards I'm holding. I have AQs, yes, but I don't like the other situational factors enough to simply call with AQs here.

Perhaps all I've done by this post is make my idiocy clearer. But perhaps there is a value in that as well.

Cris

[ilya]

If I may leap to Cris's defense with the help of a little argument-from-misapplied-authority fallacious reasoning, doesn't Doyle Brunson write in Super/System that, unlike most players, he doesn't particularly like calling a raise with AK?

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif