An 88 hand (Party 3/6).

[nepenthe]

UTG seems loose. BB is very loose and very aggressive when he has a semblance of a hand, otherwise is a calling station.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: nepenthe is MP3 with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">nepenthe 3-bets</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG caps</font>, nepenthe calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, nepenthe calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.66 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">nepenthe raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (13.66 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, nepenthe checks.

Final Pot: 13.66 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 13.66 BB, between BB, UTG and nepenthe.</font>

[spamuell]

What exactly constitues a safe card that you can raise on the turn?

Raise the flop, make the BB face two cold.

[nepenthe]

I was planning to raise any turn card except an A, K or Q. J is borderline but I was raising anyway. /images/graemlins/heart.gif or no /images/graemlins/heart.gif. If I am beat, I can be shown far more convincingly by a turn 3-bet than a flop 3-bet.

When UTG caps I have to give him credit for a PP higher than mine or AK. If I am 3-bet on the flop (as I suspect I would be if I raised), I'm in a very bad position especially if BB comes along as well (as I suspect he would). I'm basically forced to turn into a calling station, not knowing exactly whether and how much I'm behind.

[Piiop]

Is this preflop 3-bet normal for you?

[spamuell]

HU I would agree with you and prefer this line, but with the BB in the hand as well in this already 14sb pot, there are all sorts of hands you want him to fold which he might very well do so to two bets, and to one bet he's getting the odds to call with a ridiculous number of hands.

I really think you have to try to protect your hand here first.

[spamuell]

Is this preflop 3-bet normal for you?

It isn't for me and I seriously doubt it is for nepenthe either, but if he decided to do it here then I'm pretty sure he had his reasons for doing so, so I didn't feel the need to comment.

If it is a routine 3-bet for nepenthe, I'd like to know why.

[nepenthe]

It's not my default play, but here, where everyone else has folded between UTG and myself and I'm close to the button, 3betting is clearly superior to calling or folding if there is a chance I could take on UTG heads-up. If there were lots of cold-callers, I would call here. My read on UTG as loose accentuated my decision to 3-bet.

[spamuell]

Did you have any read on UTG's aggressiveness standards? While I would 3-bet a LAG here in a second, someone just described as loose (so loose-normal or loose-passive), I would fold 88 to here.

[Rico Suave]

Nepenthe:

[ QUOTE ]
It's not my default play, but here, where everyone else has folded between UTG and myself and I'm close to the button, 3betting is clearly superior to calling or folding if there is a chance I could take on UTG heads-up

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering the range of hands with which UTG is most likely raising , and the fact that you contend that 3-betting is superior to cold calling or folding (if you can get it HU) , then you would also 3-bet with 66? why not 22 if you are 95% sure you can get it HU?

--Rico

[nepenthe]

I didn't have any particular reads on his AG factor at the time. Even so, 88 is too good of a hand for me to fold here and a single UTG raise does not convince me he has a better hand.

[nepenthe]

If I'm 95% sure I can get it heads-up in this situation but only by 3-betting, then I'm 3-betting with 22.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm 95% sure I can get it heads-up in this situation but only by 3-betting, then I'm 3-betting with 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

But against a typical raiser, the best case scenario will be a coin flip and the worst case will be domination. That's why I set my PP 3betting cutoff at TT. It's dominated by a lot less hands that UTG will raise and it also dominates a few of his possible hands.

Of course, there is dead money with the blinds to play for, you have position, and implied odds of a set. But I don't think this overcomes the fact that you will be in a dominated or marginal position everytime.

[spamuell]

If I'm 95% sure I can get it heads-up in this situation but only by 3-betting, then I'm 3-betting with 22.

I think this is very bad. Slight fave, huge dog, you know this stuff.

[krishanleong]

Your more than a marginal favorite against overcards on the flop. If there was no betting on any future rounds, it would close but you can often push people off hands on the flop or turn with a small pair if they miss. They don't know you have 22.