Am I paying off too much/playing too aggressively? [Archive]

View Full Version : Am I paying off too much/playing too aggressively?

Jeff W

09-26-2004, 06:46 PM

I had a poor session today -60 BBs, won 7% of hands. Probably short term variance, but I noticed that I was paying off in situations that I probably shouldn't have and I think this is a recurring problem with my game. Here are some example hands:

Hand 1

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG folds, SB caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB
Main Pot: 10.50 BB, between SB and Hero.

Hand 2

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB
Main Pot: 13.25 BB, between Hero and Button.

Hand 3

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, MP calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP calls, CO calls, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, MP calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (12 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP folds, CO 3-bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (21 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 24 BB
Main Pot: 24 BB, between Hero, CO and SB.

Thanks for all the help. This forum has done a lot for my game and showed me how deep the water goes.

imitation

09-26-2004, 06:57 PM

Hand 1: Caps PF from 1/2 often mean AA-QQ it may not, if you don't have a clear read then I like all your play except the river, check it through.

Hand 2: I think your play is fine, except lead the river call a raise is my preferred line.

Hand 3: Without a read as these guys being majorly LAG postflop I'd fold the turn unimproved. I don't know why you raised the turn after SB leads into you after you capped the flop and anyone with a T is beating you and you have no redraws.

spider

09-26-2004, 10:51 PM

Hand 1, 77 -- As imitation notes, raise & cap from the SB generally indicates a monster at 1/2. I probably just call pre-flop and go from there. Post-flop, I'd probably just call it down if I didn't fold (My guess is you can safely fold this at 1/2). But as it worked out, being aggressive didn't really cost you much more. I think I would just let the river check through.

Hand 2, QQ -- Looks fine to me. Tough loss.

Hand 3, AJ -- Well, you did not want to see a straight or flush card on the turn with two others calling 4 bets on the flop. I'm not positive what the best response is when SB bets out there, but once it is raised behind you, you just have to accept that you are toast.

AlwaysWrong

09-27-2004, 06:22 AM

I think the play on h1 is fine.. I don't know the 1/2 game, but with the people I play against, the sb cap doesn't mean too much. I'd check through the river as well.. hard to think of hands that would call you that you beat, or that would fold that beat you.

h2 I would have been more aggressive, and thus would have lost more.. tough to put him on K or AA.

h3 - as the other responders said, you have to fold on the turn.

Jeff W

09-27-2004, 01:40 PM

Thanks for the comments everyone.

Hand 1: I routinely 3bet 77+. I am very aggressive preflop and it's been working okay for me, though I can definitely understand cold-calling strategy. I'm not too keen on folding a pair w/ only 1 overcard on the flop even though my opponent capped. My plan was to call a 3bet and re-evaluate my options on the turn. Unfortunately my opponent had JJ and not AK like I thought he had. My bet on the river was a little too aggressive I agree but my opponent enticed me into value betting by collapsing so quickly under the pressure. Aside from the river bet and possibly the flop raise, I think I played this hand okay in retrospect.

Hand 2: Opponent had K4 and I was drawing dead. I think I played this hand alright and I actually admire my restraint because I would usually play more aggressively in this situation.

Hand 3: Boy did I botch this one. I can't believe I played this so stupidly. The turn raise was ill-advised and the call was even worse. I really need to avoid having hands like this one. My opponents showed QTs and J7s. I was drawing very thin on the flop.

MisterKing

09-27-2004, 01:48 PM

Hand 1: I like your line
Hands 2 and 3: At 1/2, the opposition is not sophisticated enough to play back at you without the goods. No 3-bets on the flop, and likely fold the turn.

Nemesis

09-27-2004, 01:51 PM

I think your hand 1 is played perfectly. Whoever is saying a cap at 1/2 represents AA-QQ or AK is out of touch. I see many hands get capped PF besides those... many irrationally. When the flop comes w/ no A or K i like the play. His passiveness was kind because it saved you bets and you got to see showdown. Well played hand.

hand 2 I 3 bet on the flop every time. It gives you more info, and quite frequently you're ahead. If you get capped and continue to be bet into then you can easily lay down or call down depending on read. Your passiveness on the flop hurt you more than it helped i think because you get to the river and have no idea what he has in his hand where you put in 3 BB as opposed to 4 SB's on the flop.

samdash

09-27-2004, 02:06 PM

Hand 1 looks pretty good but consider checking behind on the river against more conservative opponents.

Hand 2 on the river I prefer to bet out and call a raise. By check raising you're allowing some weak hands to check behind and will lose 3 bets if he has a K or perhaps AA. I like how you went into call down mode on the flop since your hand will be hard to get away from at any point.

On the final hand, you need to give up on the turn if it goes to 3 bets and is 3 way. Raising the first bet on the turn may have been a mistake with a player to act behind you, but perhaps the plan should be to raise and get out if it goes to 3 bets giving someone credit for the straight.

I like your style overall and you seem to have a good understanding of how to value bet the calling stations in these games.

spider

09-27-2004, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Whoever is saying a cap at 1/2 represents AA-QQ or AK is out of touch. I see many hands get capped PF besides those... many irrationally. When the flop comes w/ no A or K i like the play. His passiveness was kind because it saved you bets and you got to see showdown. Well played hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't played 1/2/6m in a few months, so am likely out of touch. I do think, however, that because (1) the raise was from SB, and (2) was capped you are a relatively more likely to be against a pocket pair than AK or AQ. Subsequent play seems to rule out AQ, KK, and AA. So it looks like AK or JJ and below. Unless opponent would play 44 like this, you are likely beat.

But of course this is really opponent specific. From some players this really does mean AA-QQ or AK. But from others it may mean very little.