So is he calling or raising?

This is a situation (hold 'em mainly) I often see in the cardroom I play in, comments would be appreciated.


A player X bets (not pre-flop). The next player Y to act (that is either calling or raising) grabs a stack of chips, and brings them forward slowly so that it appears that he could be raising, while at the same time looking around the table to see if players look like they might be folding, calling, raising, etc. based on body language. Sometimes the player Y just calls and other times the player raises (depending on what he has seen). In other words, a player Y that uses this technique can gain some information by acting in this manner.


I have experience playing in only one b&m cardroom, and I see this done almost every time I play.


I have also heard that some cardrooms have the rule where if you bring enough chips forward to raise, it is deemed a raise, no matter what. Does this rule exist in many cardrooms?


Personally, I consider this to be an angle-shooting technique and would much rather prefer to have the rule I just mentioned (bringing forward enough chips to raise is a raise) in play.


Is this a problem worth considering? What do others think?


js in mn

Hi JS,


I am also a minnesota guy, and I have noticed this, and I think it is angle shooting. Maybe if you have enough response to this, you could print out the thread, and take it over to canterbury, they might have something to say, or maybe might modify their rules somehow.


Good luck,

Play well,


Bob T.

dolt to his immediate left falls for the ploy every hand. I'd like to see that rule univerally employed.

js in mn,


In Los Angeles, forward motion with chips in hand is a bet (I might have time to write more on this and how it is enforced/not enforced in the real world later), but forward motion with extra chips isn’t a raise until the chips are cut-off (placed) on the table.


The move you describe is an angle of sorts, but any astute player can easily defend against it by waiting to act. Now the rules should protect the less than astute to a degree; however, proper enforcement of your suggested rule might create more problems then it would solve.


I’d like to see what others think before commenting further, perhaps tomorrow morning.


Regards,


Rick

At our local riverboat cardroom, this became a particular problem in one of the higher limit games. To combat the problem and make a compromise of sorts, a line was placed on the felt around the table; if you crossed the line with chips in hand, it was a bet or raise depending on the number of chips. They also made it against the rules to check with chips in your hand.


Fitz

I believe the cross-the-line-with-chips-in-your-hand rule is also the rule at Foxwoods, though I have never seen a dispute over it.

I forgot to mention in my original post that I rarely ever give any hint of whether I will be folding, calling, or raising until it is my turn to act, especially when someone uses this ploy. However, I suppose I can say that I am annoyed when half of the table actually does fall for it and gives the culprit a chance to take advantage.

Head-up, I had a player take a big stack of chips, drop off enough to call, stare at me, pause, and then drop off a raise stack. I claimed it was a string raise, having not been made in "one smooth motion," and was overruled (by Kevin at Commerce). Clearly a wrong decision, in my judgment.


I'm in favor of players having to announce their intentions to raise before any chips "pass the line." No declaration of a raise, no raise allowed.

Its a fairly common unethical angle and few card room care enough to do anything about it, and I doubt any do prevent it.


I saw one guy who would routinely put a large stack of chips ON the table, keep his finger on it, and pause shamelessly, but so long as he didn't let them go he could choose to either call or raise. He got REAL irate when I once nudged his arm away from his chips and I then reraised, but I digress...


Most casinos have the "one motion" rule when it comes to raising: you must say raise or put your money in in "one motion". One subjective way to deal with the angle shooters is to change the interpretation of "one motion": a pause in the betting motion makes TWO betting motions. If so, someone who pauses with his chips has forfeited the right to raise.


Another would be the apparently repugnant rule about "clear intention". A "string raise" is OK so long as that's your clear intention. If you bet ambiguously as you have described, you must call but cannot raise.


Another would be for the casino to not tolerate angle shooters at all. Maybe you and your buddies should start complaining. If so, be sure to complain in their language: talk about alientating the new players and slowing down the rake.


- Louie

I agree with many (most) of the comments and have nothing else to add re the question. But I would like to mention that any decision by Kevin at the Commerce club should be viewed as incompetent, lazy, and most of the time just plain wrong. He doesn't care about his job, and it is a mystery to me as to why he was hired. this opinion is based on having witnessed his performance at many of the southern california clubs for the past 10 years.

I'm in favor of players having to announce their intentions to raise before any chips "pass the line." No declaration of a raise, no raise allowed.


I would be very much against such a rule. I prefer to play most of my hands in relative silence, lest any inflection in my voice give anything away. I do announce my raises in tournaments, because I can never remember what the hell the limits are. /images/smile.gif I'm a regular at Canterbury Park myself, and I do see the kind of crap that js is talking about, and it doesn't really bother me that much. And there's a lot less of it in the bigger games where I usually play than in the smaller games where (I think) js plays.

If the rule you favor is in effect, then it will greatly slow the game down in games like 15-30 and 20-40. Players commonly go out with stacks larger than their raise or bet in order to be sure to have enough chips to cut off quickly. Granted some anglers abuse this, but the flip side is forcing players to be sure they go out with enough but not too many chips--say you want to put in $60 to call in a $15-30 game. Do you really want to have to count out the chips in front of you before grabbing them and betting or raising. Do you really want the whole table to be doing this. Bear in mind if you grab $75 worth of chips by mistake and go out with them, if your favored rule is in effect then in most clubs you would also be forced to complete the raise to $90 (since it is at least half the amount of the raise). If the whole table has to be sure they don't go out with too many chips the game would slow WAY down and games are often too slow anyway. Besides someone could gain a similar edge to the angle you mention merely by counting the chips out in front of them (without going forward) and watching their opponents' reaction. Almost the same thing as the angle-shooting is concerned. Opponents need to be stone-faced either way. Last thing we should want is more rules that slow the games down--the key to combatting this angle I think, is not giving away a reaction, since angle-shooters can always try to provoke a similar reaction by various means anyway.

I do play the lower limits at CCC, and I'm sure Andy is right that there is a lot less of this at the higher limits.


After reading all of the posts in this thread, I think action should be taken by the dealer or floorperson if and only if 1) a player is obviously trying to use this to his advantage, 2) player(s) at the table are obviously annoyed by this and 3) there are player(s) that are obviously too easily fooled by a simple trick. It seems to me that this problem usually only takes place on a minority of the tables and not the entire cardroom, so making a rule to combat this might not be the best solution. But in a specific case like andy fox's, I think no action being taken is ridiculous.

"forward motion with chips in hand is a bet". "but forward motion with extra chips isn’t a raise until the chips are cut-off (placed) on the table". We employ the same rule/policy in our room. I agree that trying to design a more specific rule to this problem will open up a host of new problems. However, if we, as floormen/managers/players, take the time to educate players to the issues related to such an angle, over time we can minimize the abuse. I think that a little extra effort may work wonders in this area.


I don't like the action/commitment line that is utilized in many cardrooms. Often, the result of this line is more confusion or penalties for honest errors. I like the use of a "courtesy" line which encourages players to place their chips far enough forward for the dealer to reach thereby speeding the game up and making life easier for the dealers.


Larry

Two cases where this definitely isn't a shot: (1) when you aren't loading up chips to get information, but information comes to you anyway. Example: you intend to reraise with a strong hand but downstream players signal surrender. On split-second thought, you slowplay. This happens a fair amount of the time. (2) Same scenario, but you're still thinking and change your mind when something else dawns on you, like a prior round tell. This should happen a fair amount of the time.