Slowplaying: risk v. reward.

[bisonbison]

MP2 here is a little loose and a little too aggressive. I chose this line because he began the hand with a little less than 6 BB. How risky/dumb is this? It's really unusual for me to do this. 99% of the time I c/r the flop.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

[rjb03]

I'd be less worried about MP2 and more worried about everyone else in the hand who may have flush draws, inside straight draws, OESDs, etc, etc.

[bisonbison]

obviously, but given that I can't get them out of the hand in any way, how about pumping my equity?

[rjb03]

I'd probably check raise the flop and hope to get 3-bet by MP2 which may limit the field somewhat and weed out some of the straight draws at least. I wouldn't really want to see much action on the turn and river unless it is by MP2.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
but given that I can't get them out of the hand in any way

[/ QUOTE ]

So? Let them call incorrectly.

[Nick709]

im not sure there is any reason to not checkraise this flop.
either that or I am completely missing something.

[bisonbison]

who is going to be calling incorrectly one or two SB at a time in a 20 SB pot?

[Sadat X]

Did you plan to bet out on the turn? Why not bet the flop? If MP2 raises (which he might do with just overs), you make everybody call 2 cold, which I'd be fairly happy with in this spot.

Edit: you'll be getting good value with multiple coldcallers with flush/straight draws anyway if they all call.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
who is going to be calling incorrectly one or two SB at a time in a 20 SB pot?


[/ QUOTE ]

OVERCARDS.

[rjb03]

You'd also have better odds for a redraw if a scarecard comes with heavy action.

[bisonbison]

OVERCARDS.

I HAVE A SET. Unpaired overcards without a spade are drawing dead to me on the flop, so I'd rather have them call BBs on the turn than potentially kill my action by c/ring the flop.

[Evan]

Overs are also incorrectly calling for 1 SB (I haven't actually done the math cause I'm too lazy but it seems like they would be). that being said, I still c/r the flop.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]

I HAVE A SET. Unpaired overcards without a spade are drawing dead to me on the flop, so I'd rather have them call BBs on the turn than potentially kill my action by c/ring the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you can't assume all the players left to act will call a turn bet. The idea of trapping 4? players for a double bet here on the flop is irresistable.

Also, if you CR the flop, do you really think they're going to put you on a set? They don't think they're drawing dead. Also, when you CR the flop the pot will become larger and they will be more inclined to call a turn bet with overcards.
And, speaking of action killing, there are alot of turn cards that will do this.

[bisonbison]

In retrospect I think you guys are right. I forwent (forwent?) the possibility of tons of flop action that he might read as a spade draw in favor of the limited beauty of a humungous check-raise. Slowplaying multiway on a draw-heavy board at a loose table is dumb.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.16 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls.

River: (21.16 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: 23.16 BB

[Evan]

Wow, check-call, check-raise = a 7 handed river. This table was beyond loose. You're better than this Peter, just check-raise the damn flop from now on.

[bisonbison]

Like I said, it was a once in a lifetime thing. On the flop, even with all possible draws out, as long as no one has 99, I have at least 50% equity.

[rjb03]

About as good a river card as you could hope for. I'm surprised you didn't get any more action. Anyone have the flush?

[Evan]

I know you're pot equity is huge, push it!!

[bisonbison]

I know. I wanted to do something cool.

edit: also, forwent is a word.

[momo24]

It seems like the consensus is to c/r the flop. I would bet out on this flop, and I'm wondering why c/r is the preferable play. If you bet into the preflop raiser, there is a decent chance that he'll raise and help protect your hand from the weaker draws. If he raises the flop, you're in a good spot to c/r the turn. Even if you're not raised on the flop, you've got six callers and can almost certainly c/r the turn--at a table this loose, there's almost no chance that the turn would get checked around. Is there something I'm missing?

[Cerril]

This is definitely a perfect situation to checkraise the flop. I was going to say bet and hope you get raised but at this point I think you either want the whole table with you at the river or everyone out NOW. Since everyone isn't leaving you might as well get more money in.

I definitely understand the allure of watching for the turn then trying to get two bets to the rest of the table if it's a blank (depending on what you can make MP2 do) to at least get out the gutshots. But this definitely feels like the sort of situation where you just want the most money in on every street that's possible depending on the texture of the table and just intend to have the best hand by a mile by the river.

[Trix]

I think they will give you more action if you check-raise the flop and you are sure that all will call one more.

check-raising the flop doesn´t stop you from going for one more on the turn anyways :P

[krishanleong]

This post was really wierd to read. So many people talking about protecting your hand. That should be the last thing on your mind when you have a set. This post is all about equity. Since you can't get people who have a shot at beating you to fold, how can you extract the most from them when you win.

I actually like the turn c/r for this. The only problem with it is theoretically is that if there is a turn card that MP2 doesn't like, he might not bet. Worst case it checks around. Much more likely is that you checkraise a LP bettor and face too much of the field with 2. When I'm in this situation, I try and determine what cards might scare MP2 into not betting the turn. The more potential scare cards, the more inclined I am to c/r the flop. If the board was 9s 7s Ac, I would c/r the turn every time because the turn card is unlikely to slow MP2 down. Also, I'm more inclined to check raise the turn when I stand to trap 4 people in between for 2 than say 1 person. I think these are the things you have should think about to determine is the turn c/r is good.

Finally, if by some chance a scare card falls and you are behind on the turn, the checkraise isn't horrible because of your redraws to the full housse.

Also if you want to get super fancy, you can check raise the flop and c/r the turn. It works because people percieve the flop c/r as pumping a flush draw.

[bunky9590]

Hey bison, Rarely if ever do I slowplay a hand. That being in limit or no limit. That being said, this pot sets up well for a turn checkraise. you can trap a boat load of people on the turn by just calling if you're sure that MP will bet the turn. , also if the scare card comes on the turn you can keep the pot smaller and wait to fill on the river.

My default would have been to bet that flop, but the way you played it , wait for the checkraise on the turn.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
just check-raise the damn flop from now on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you could go that route if you're a mechanical mindless player. The way this pot was set up a flop check raise with a bettor on your left is just sick. If you're gonna do that bet/three bet the flop. A check raise in this kind of pot while it puts more money in on the flop will limit the amount of money that goes in on the turn. If a brick hits the turn when he check calls the flop he is in PRIME position to get MORE money in when he has way the best of it.

When you all stop worrying about trying to get fancy with all these flop check raises and start playing poker you'll make a lot more money.

[sthief09]

my only problem with this (I do stuff like this all the time, so I know) is that sometimes a scary card comes on the turn, you get scared (for good reason), and end up just calling the turn and river with the best hand, or end up betting the turn when they get scared and check to you.

[spamuell]

Hi Bunky,

If you're gonna do that bet/three bet the flop.

This would be pretty bad as it would make the field face two cold if the pfr raised.

A check raise in this kind of pot while it puts more money in on the flop will limit the amount of money that goes in on the turn. If a brick hits the turn when he check calls the flop he is in PRIME position to get MORE money in when he has way the best of it.

This is the case if you know that the following is true:

-the pfr is going to bet the turn (which a lot of the time they won't, mostly when they have overcards, bet the flop and then check the turn after being called)
-you are still going to have lots of callers on the turn (which a lot of the time you won't, as people peel cards off the flop for one small bet here with lots of overcards, backdoor draws and combinations thereof but then fold the turn when it's more expensive and only one card left to come).

Given the perfect opportunity on the flop relative to the pfr, I think check-raising the flop is clearly the best play.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
Given the perfect opportunity on the flop relative to the pfr, I think check-raising the flop is clearly the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll have to agree to disagree then, matter of style I suppose. But If I ever check that flop when I flop a set on a draw infested board, please have me committed.

The way bison played it, I think is a very good linbe for the circumstance. I'll gladly take a chance on the PFR firing a second barrell on the turn to get in the big checkraise there.

If you're afriad he's gonna check then bet it yourself. I'll take the chance there for a big windfall when that blank hit. I really really don't like the flop check raise there. But, like I said, I won't impose my style upon everyone.