Welcome to the Jungle

[BottlesOf]

I have no idea.


Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $5. CO posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 (poster) calls, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (20 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(10 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (18 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (32 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 folds, Hero folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 35 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 35 BB, between BB, UTG and UTG+1.</font>

[Tosh]

Preflop: Standard, though sometimes I 3 bet.

Flop: Jam it up baby.

Turn: I favour the check 3 bet here for fun.

River: You got to raise, you only need 5 players to fold.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Johnny,

Welcome to the Jungle

Considering your fishy preflop call, I think your post would more aptly be named Cannery Row.

GoT

PS. Steinbeck &gt; Sinclair

[Festus22]

"Preflop: Standard, though sometimes I 3 bet."

Surely you jest.

[BottlesOf]

Fishy? This looked like it was gonna be an 8 way pot!!! In fact, it was 10 ways. Tosh says standard...you don't think it's at least close?

What does Steinbeck have to do with anything? And how about the author "Rose?"

-Bottles

[BottlesOf]

It appears, Tosh MAY have been making fun of me...

[joker122]

Looks good to me.

[GuyOnTilt]

Tosh says standard...you don't think it's at least close?

Reread Tosh's post concerning the preflop play. And no, I don't.

What does Steinbeck have to do with anything?

Steinbeck, as usual, has everything to do with it.

And how about the author "Rose?"

The only author by that name that comes to mind is Rose Tremain, and I'm assuming you're not referring to her...

GoT

[joker122]

No, preflop is fine.

[BottlesOf]

GNR???

C'mon GoT!!!!!!!!!

And, I'm going to need some convincing about the preflop.

[GuyOnTilt]

No, preflop is fine.

Justify.

GoT

[joker122]

Multiway, implied odds, etc.

[GuyOnTilt]

GNR???

Not a GNR fan. I did see Blindside for the 3rd time live just last week and I'm able to reconfirm that they put on THEE BEST LIVE SHOW EVER. PERIOD. Go buy their album.

And, I'm going to need some convincing about the preflop.

Me too. :/

GoT

[Tosh]

Chris, I thought you were joking and responded as such:

Your preflop call is bad.

[joker122]

I don't see why the preflop call is bad. Not that this is total justification but DS says to here call with only 1 limper with 74s.

[GuyOnTilt]

Multiway, implied odds, etc.

Crappy relative position, half your normal implied odds, multiple players left to act that could reraise, possible (though rare) reverse implied odds, etc. Your turn.

GoT

[BottlesOf]

How about a humongous [censored] pot.

Your turn.

[GuyOnTilt]

So what percent of your hands are you folding here? What percentage of your suited hands are you folding here?

GoT

[BottlesOf]

I'd say I'm folding about 65% of my total hands here.

I'd say I'm folding about....you could do this part a lot better. Any suited broadway, any suited Ace, any suited King, Suited connectors down to 43 and one gappers down to 46.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
half your normal implied odds

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Does this mean you fold every hand out of the blinds because your implied odds are cut in half?

[ QUOTE ]
reverse implied odds


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so. I think part of the reason you can make this call is because the hand is easy to play post flop.

And, as Tosh noted, it's a huge [censored] pot.

edit - i mean bottles.

[BottlesOf]

That was me. Tosh is with GoT.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Does this mean you fold every hand out of the blinds because your implied odds are cut in half?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you call multiple bets, your implied odds are always worse as the more bets you call the harder they are to make up on later streets.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think so. I think part of the reason you can make this call is because the hand is easy to play post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

In what way is it easy and how is that a justifiable reason? Not the its easy to get away from argument, yuck I hate that. If you hit a 4 or 6 you're seeing the river here in the majority of hands, you'll often pay 3+ bets to see a flop, in a family pot your relative position is poor.

[sfer]

The preflop call really looks like a misclick.

[sfer]

I don't like calling 2 bets preflop with JTs. Here we're not even connected.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
When you call multiple bets, your implied odds are always worse as the more bets you call the harder they are to make up on later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you assuming it will get 3bet behind hero?


[ QUOTE ]
In what way is it easy and how is that a justifiable reason? Not the its easy to get away from argument, yuck I hate that. If you hit a 4 or 6 you're seeing the river here in the majority of hands, you'll often pay 3+ bets to see a flop, in a family pot your relative position is poor.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said that it was easy to play as a response to GoT's worry about reverse implied odds. This entails that, yes, the hand is easy to get away from. If you see the river a majority of the time after flopping a pair with this hand then you and I play alot differently. I'm not implying anything by that.

[BottlesOf]

On another hand about 9 months ago, I cold called with T9 or 98 and many less players. I was told it was ok. I'm going to try and dig it up.

HOWEVER, if Dave is telling me a pf call is too loose, I've gotta re-examine.

[sfer]

Don't confuse my massive suckout attempts with serious play. Nothing feels as sweet as announcing bottom two on a 24xxx board.

[GuyOnTilt]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Does this mean you fold every hand out of the blinds because your implied odds are cut in half?

I think you may have learned implied odds incorrectly. Implied odds are the bets I'm able to make when I hit my hand relative to the bets I'm being asked to invest to get there. Here I'm calling two (actually more because it'll get reraised a certain % of the time) to see the flop, so I'll need to make up twice as many bets postflop as if I had been asked to call one. From the blinds, your implied odds are much greater in a pot that's been raised once, since I'm only having to call 1 SB. From the SB in an unraised pot, even moreso since I'm only being asked to call half a bet.

I don't think so. I think part of the reason you can make this call is because the hand is easy to play post flop.

That may be, but because a hand won't be difficult to play postflop does not in any way mean it's correct to see the flop. And again, your relative position really sucks here. The more players between you and the PF raiser on your right the better in these situations. Here, you will have the vast majority of the field on the other side. Crappy.

GoT

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]

Why are you assuming it will get 3bet behind hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not. 2 bets means your implied odds are already cut in half as GoT has already said. More than 2 and it gets even worse. If you don't appreciate why 20/2 is worse than 10/1 for implied odds I suggest you need a refresher course.

[ QUOTE ]

I said that it was easy to play as a response to GoT's worry about reverse implied odds. This entails that, yes, the hand is easy to get away from. If you see the river a majority of the time after flopping a pair with this hand then you and I play alot differently. I'm not implying anything by that.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we're saying its 8+ way action then folding a pair on the flop is almost always a mistake.

[joker122]

I think you're too worried about domination. The more players in a pot the less detrimental it is.

[BottlesOf]

Here, you will have the vast majority of the field on the other side. Crappy.

Does it matter here? The pot is so big, they'll call 2 cold like champs. Even with implied odds cut, my gut tells me the pot is going to be big enough to overcome this.

[joker122]

I misread preflop and I thought bottles was a poster. Fold preflop /images/graemlins/crazy.gif Sorry to waste everyone's time.

[GuyOnTilt]

I think you're too worried about domination. The more players in a pot the less detrimental it is.

Bleh. People are getting really good at regurgitating Miller, Sklansky, et. al. and less good at thinking for themselves and applying ALL of the applicable concepts to the correct situations. Sure calling here with 64s has its pros, but I think the cons definitely outweigh them and Tosh and I are presenting some of them. With 64s versus 8 opponents there is a chance someone has higher suits. But as I mentioned in my original response to you, it's rare. More important than that is the other cons we've mentioned.

GoT

[joker122]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1061710&amp;page=0&amp;view=e xpanded&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;vc=1

[BottlesOf]

I have lost my last soldier. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I'm digging the archives for this thread where a similar spot came up and I think I was told to call. I probably had a better hand....

http://www.otc.army.mil/tesanew/IMD/flag.jpg

[Evan]

I like the PF call, a lot of people raise form EP with less that 64s....c'mon Chris, what were you thinking, this call is bad. You can't say it looks like it will be an 8 way pot, just cause they posted doesn't mean they'll call, LP players fold every once in a while and so do the blinds. You cannot sell me on a coldcall with 64s. I guess the rest of the hand is fine but you shouldn't have played it in the first place.

[sfer]

I'm not concerned about domination at all with suited connectors or, in this case, 64s. I'm worried about the fact that I know, going in, my implied odds are crushed when I flop a draw like 1 time in 8, I get there one time in 2 or 3, and sometimes I still don't win. I want to see the flop cheap. A big pot divided by two isn't that big to me, ex ante.

[BottlesOf]

I like the PF call, a lot of people raise form EP with less that 64s

If you think that is the reason this is a bad call....

[BottlesOf]

Really? Are my implied odds crushed? The pot was $350. 35x my pf call. Everyone keeps saying this, and I don't buy it.

[joker122]

Please, I have suffered enough humilation for today.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1061710&amp;page=0&amp;view=e xpanded&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;vc=1

[sfer]

The raise cut them in half. That's crushed to me.

[sfer]

It takes a big man to admit they misread the hand. /images/graemlins/wink.gif I blame early mornings and lack of coffee every time.

[BottlesOf]

Yea fine, they're hurt, but the pot is more than double what it otherwise would probably be.

[Evan]

That's obviously not the reason it's a bad call, I'm not stupid enough to think I always have to start witht he best hand. But I would love to hear your explanation of coldcalling with 64s. And I'd rather not have you say that it was gonna be 8 handed to the flop because you can't be sur of that from where you are, that's why position=gold.

[BottlesOf]

Well, you're right--It was 10 handed, which it will sometimes be, just as it will sometimes be 6 handed. As for why I think it was right--the ginormous pot. I presented my case somewhat in this thread, and was shot down. I have conceeded I was probably wrong.

[Evan]

Yea it was a ginormous pot, but you're being fairly results oriented. If you've already conceded defeat than I guess there's no need to beat a dead horse.

[BottlesOf]

Well, am I? I'm not sure this is such a unique case when there was a utg limp, an ep raise, several coldcallers and two posters behiind me.

Regardless, yes, I've waved the white flag.

[Evan]

I didn't realize you were the 3rd cold caller (i thought you were the 2nd), that makes me like it a little more, but I'm still laying it down. How do you get your VPIP lower than mine and play hands like this?

[Joe Tall]

WTF?

Fold it, chump.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Trix]

98s would seem close to me in this spot...

[sthief09]

I see that there are almost 50 posts on the topic, but I figured I'd throw my opinion in. Cold-calling with suited connectors sucks. Cold-calling with baby suited connectors sucks slightly more. Cold-calling with suited gappers sucks slightly more than that. Cold-calling in MP with a baby suited gapper is really bad IMO.

I know you're trying to loosen up, and maybe you should, but this is not the place.

EDIT: This is not my hatred of suited gappers talking. I wish I got in on this earlier, because I'm amazed all the good posters that are trying to justify it.

[bunky9590]

you wanna keep playing trash like that to an EP raise, at least do it in NL where if you can catch a miracle flop to double through.

Oh yeah, ni han.

JBB mett sarcasm.

[Danenania]

I think Trix's question is the interesting one here. What hands WOULD you call with in this spot?

[BigEndian]

Fold PF. Check out 64s in your PTer. Paying 2 BB and potentially more is not justifiable since, by far, you will be a) folding the flop and b) paying more on further streets on hands that don't get there. The other possibilities don't come near to making up the difference.

- Jim

[BigEndian]

Really? Are my implied odds crushed? The pot was $350. 35x my pf call. Everyone keeps saying this, and I don't buy it.

Because the results turned out to be the exception to the rule (the massive pot) doesn't make it a good call in the general case. I would also argue that even if you had won this pot, making this call in regular fashion would still be a net loss over time. Meaning 35/1 you are tossing at least your 2BB.

- Jim

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

If I was assured, before the hand, that all 10 players would stay in, and for exactly 2 bets each, I might be convinced to see this flop. Since such assurances are rare, I would fold.

[Sundevils21]

I say fold it.
However, if you somehow *knew* you were going to flop an open ender and the pot was going to be 35bb's, well then not calling would be suicide.

[BottlesOf]

Same pf action, but without 2 posters behind. So I had it better pf. I also had worse players. However, I also had a solidly worse hand. Your thoughts? I don't see how I couldn't call 98s in my spot, or 87s, what else????

Similar (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1062292&amp;page=0&amp;view=e xpanded&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=#1062292)

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]

I think Trix's question is the interesting one here. What hands WOULD you call with in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's hard to get the unbelievable continuation of the preflop calling out of one's mind. But let's try. This is supposed to be a Party 5/10 table and no reads were offered to suggest it is fishier than normal.

We are at MP2 which means we are fairly exposed to additional raises. We have a limper, an EP raise, two coldcallers, and two extra posters behind us.

JTs looks OK. Probably you can go a little lower. Trix is probably right that 98s is borderline. Suited-connector hand value drops rapidly with decreasing card rank. You need to win lots of hands without making a straight or flush to help pay the bills.

It's dangerous to think of posters as extra loose limpers. Limpers usually call the raise like good sheep. Not only might the posters fold, they could also have strong hands. Then you get 3-bet and sandwiched between two good hands.

[BottlesOf]

[ QUOTE ]
This is supposed to be a Party 5/10 table and no reads were offered to suggest it is fishier than normal.


[/ QUOTE ]

Um, you need me to say that? Ok it is.

As for your recommendations, I believe they are too tight.

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1062292&amp;page=0&amp;view=e xpanded&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=#1062292)

Not saying my call is right, but I don't think people realize some hands they should call in this spot.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the same pf action as my hand last night GoT, except you don't have two posters behind you. So, in my situation, one should be calling a little worse than you are willing to.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree. Your situation is inferior to his because of your worse position.

His button has telegraphed a coldcall. That gives him an extra player, ensures that there will be no knockout 3-bet in front of the blinds, and limits his investment to 2 SB unless a blind is willing to reraise from out-of-position.

It's nice that your two posters have money in the pot, but that won't stop them from folding and it certainly won't stop them from 3-betting. You have three people who could reraise behind you. He has zero. Huge difference.

Your inferior position will probably continue for the rest of the hand. He already has cutoff and may eventually gain the button.

It is also painfully evident from his post that he is privy to a vast stream of tells that you can never duplicate online. That is a huge advantage in playing the hand.

[J.R.]

Another consideration is the live element, which makes reading hands a bit easier and allows GOT to have a better idea about the liklihood that it gets 3-bet behind him than you. And it seemed his game was in a pretty fired up spot, so the chances he gets paid off are good (but that also means he may have to pay alot on the flop with a draw). Either way, you're right that 64s is significantly worse than 98s, but even if your preflop play is a mistake, its a fairly small one. And since we know you play well postflop and will make the most of your hand, this thread is entirely too long.

[BottlesOf]

Thank you JR. You made my day.

[BottlesOf]

Yeah, you make good points about position and live play.

However, I do feel these posters are more likely to call than fold/re-raise, given the amount of people already in for a raise.

[sthief09]

As I wrote in that post:

CO &gt;&gt; MP
98s &gt;&gt; 64s


it's not like a suited connector is a suited connector is a suited connetor. keep in mind that we play a game of high cards. even with drawing hands, like suited connectors, you're going to need more than just straights and flushes to turn a profit, and a pair of 9s is a hell of a lot stronger than a pair of 6s.

[MicroBob]

I'm perfectly fine with the PF call.

I may or may not do it but I think it's okay for the reasons you articulated.

On the flop - you really are looking at this as a 6-outer since your club-outs are tainted so i consider just calling....but raising for value is okay too.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
but even if your preflop play is a mistake, its a fairly small one

[/ QUOTE ]
Undoubtedly true. We are discussing EV equal to a small fraction of a SB here.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
If you hit a 4 or 6 you're seeing the river here in the majority of hands

[/ QUOTE ]


In the situations where you do this it is because it is +EV to do so.
Even if you are chasing a 5-outer....as long as it's +EV then it's a good thing to be putting those bets in.


[ QUOTE ]
In what way is it easy

[/ QUOTE ]


Aside from hitting a pair (which you can also just ditch if you like...especially if the flop is 2 suited) you are pretty much either catching a straight or flush draw or you are not.

Even if you just have a gut-shot straight draw it is obvious that you will want to see the next card (and will likely have odds to call on the river as well).


On the implied-odds issue: In a hand like this, it is more likely that a couple players will donate away on the occasions when you do it because the pot is so huge.

You'd rather see it for 1 bet...but cold-calling 2-bets here is not as ludicrously terrible as everyone seems to think.

I see the argument 'I can't believe you cold-called a raise with 64s' but the reason for doing it is because you are getting the significant multi-way action you want so that you are more likely to get a nice pay-off when you do hit.


If everyone folded...CO raises and he cold-called from the button with 64s then I would say 'I can't believe you cold-called with 64s'.


I would be very interested for Ed and/or Clark to chime-in on this hand (and fully acknowledge the possibility that they would say 'go ahead and fold PF')

[BigEndian]

I'm going to disagree with this. I think paying 2BB in this spot routinely is a significant mistake. If you did nothing but play 64s for 2BB in this situation with the action as it is to you, it would burn chips significantly. 64s is not a long term winner.

Now, if the hero decided what the heck and he'd play this one instance and never play a hand similarly - that's a small mistake.

Please refer to your PT numbers for 97s, 86s, 75s and 64s if you feel more convincing is needed.

- Jim

[BottlesOf]

2 Sbs, not Bbs...

[BigEndian]

Typo of course.

- Jim

[Clarkmeister]

I fold preflop. Yes I know there's blinds posted. I don't care. I have a bad hand that wants to see the flop cheaply in for at least 2 bets, possibly more, with bad position. Blech.

[BottlesOf]

This is Clark's first post in SS since 8/25.

I'm honored that my absurd hand brought you back.

[Clarkmeister]

LOL.

I do a search for my name every now and then and someone mentioned it in this thread. So I popped in to give what I consider to be a pretty easy answer. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Tosh]

I dream of the kind of power that Clarkmeister has; he steps in and ENDS the argument right there.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I dream of the kind of power that Clarkmeister has; he steps in and ENDS the argument right there.

[/ QUOTE ]


you've done that more than a few times yourself

[ErrantNight]

no one should like calling two bets cold w/ JTs. but with three callers in between? and likely to bring along the blinds? how many times do you need to hit this hand to make this +ev? once a year? once a lifetime?

now with 64s... in his position with the possibility of raises behind it's not so hot. put him towards or on the button with the same callers (i.e.: literally everyone) then i would think a call WOULD be downright standard.