WTF hand of the day - bad fold?

[Ritter]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Button calls.

River: (11 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, Button folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Results in white below (see if you can correctly call ONE of the two hands out before peeking - it'll be more fun): <font color="white">
UTG has 4c 3d (two pair, jacks and fours).
MP1 has 6s 4d (two pair, jacks and fours).
Outcome: UTG wins 6.50 BB. MP1 wins 6.50 BB. </font>

I'm not even sure what my question is here...please point out all mistakes (if any) on my part... I had just joined this table and had no reads or info on anybody.

[JDErickson]

one and only huge mistake.

Bet the river. no way in hell am I ck folding this river.If someone stuck with an A so be it. Chances are they didn't

[All-In]

You should at least call one bet on the river. I would have bet out on the river instead of checking. No one has shown any strength at all.

[Ritter]

But I'm not worried about the A so much as the COMBINED possibilities of an A, a flush draw, or a slow-played J.

They had to be calling all the way with SOMETHING right?

(of course, it turned out they were)

[MrHorace]

I have to chuckle as I made a similar mistake in a live 2/4 game last night. I had JJ, the flop came Q8x, an opponent raised the flop, which I called, I bet the turn, he raised, and I folded. In the end, he showed he'd paired the 8's on the flop, and that's what he was betting on. Been kicking myself since.

So, as All-In said, bet the river &amp; don't fold. Person probably didn't have the Ace. This is what I refer to as a 'tuition-paying' hand...pay to learn the game better.

Good luck,
MrHorace

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
They had to be calling all the way with SOMETHING right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope

If you have Tracker take a look at the hands they call with bottom pair or even worse. You can't assume they have a hand. Let them tell you first.

Remember, for most players all it takes is a tiny part of the flop to stay in.

[Ritter]

I'm totally down with the tuition concept...that's what I'm doing here /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just trying to find the line between properly aggressive and reckless. You can't ALWAYS play like your opps have nothing right?

I'd be ok with putting one of the two players on garbage, but I assumed ONE OF THE TWO of them would have had a) a big ace b) been drawing to spades or c) slow-playing a jack
all of which were bad news for hero...

trying to get my brain around the river bet - thanks...

[Ritter]

That is to say, if it were heads-up, I would agree 100% with bet-call. It's the 2 opps I'm stuggling with.

Just started using Tracker - very cool product. After a monsterous sample size of 600 hands, I've learned to no longer play AA or KK - I've had them each once since I started tracking and have lost with them 100% of the time!
(just kidding) It is fun to watch the numbers change.

[Entity]

Ed has a post for you. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=462860&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1)

Next time you see him, you owe him a beer. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
They had to be calling all the way with SOMETHING right?


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, this is why we all make money off these donkaliscious retards. They will call with so much trash, you can't fold here. If it's bet AND raised back to you, then I see a better reason to drop this. Bad fold

[JDErickson]

After thinking a little more on this hand.

On the river you are wither way ahead or way behind. If you are way ahead and you bet they may have folded. If you are behind then you would have gotten raised on the river bet.

So what do others think of checking the river and calling a bet? You may induce a bluff and you only invest 1 bet if you are behind. If you ck and 1 opponent bets and the other raises then I think you can safely fold.

Anyway, just an idea

[MrHorace]

I admit to being having a bit of tunnel vision commisserating about my bad play, but I still think it's worth the call. Also, I agree w/All-In that betting the river is probably a better strategy in that you continue the offensive that you've had since the beginning of play.

I'm curious as to what would've happened had you check-raised the flop or turn? Would it have changed the play? And I guess a better question is, would it have been correct strategy?

It's a tough game for sure, but that's what fascinates me about it. I also struggle with the line between being aggressive, and playing stupidly. But, learning is all about learning, as Yogi Berra would say.
Good Luck,
Mr Horace

Good luck.

[Ritter]

Yes does everybody agree with betting out on the flop and turn?

I guess I'm just in a little bit of shock. I'm new to SSH after a couple years of just playing tourneys.

4-3o UTG???
6-4o MP???

I didn't know such land of sugar and honey truly existed...

[Ritter]

Thanks for the link Rob - great post.

I was already going to buy Ed a 12-pack for SSHE - I'm in the midst of it right now and really enjoying it.

[spamuell]

Hi JD,

On the river you are wither way ahead or way behind. If you are way ahead and you bet they may have folded. If you are behind then you would have gotten raised on the river bet.

They would have called and not bet (or raised) with the exact hands which they are likely to have, which is a lower pair. This is why betting is clearly correct.

The question is how to react to a raise? I would say fold but doubtless others will say "you must call, you will be shocked at how often you win this pot, you don't want opponents to take shots at you" etc. I'd still probably fold though.