SFer, what do I do on the other end?

[Evan]

As he bets the river I recall a converstaion I had with SFer a few eeks ago where we were talking about this line against a PF aggressor when you flop something like top pair. Now I find myself on the other end, how'd I do?

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, BB calls.

River: (8.20 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.20 BB

by the way, Stars sucks, I miss Party.

[bisonbison]

Let's say you win this 5% of the time and discourage river bluffs and get to find out what his cards were. That'd be worth it to me.

[Trix]

Why want to discourage river bluffs if you are going to call usually anyway ?

[Trix]

Call, he is probably betting cuz he expects AK to call. He will have a pair, a 5 or whatever often enough.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
Why want to discourage river bluffs if you are going to call usually anyway ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because folding a winner once would make his bluffing all those times optimal if the pot was big enough, even if you usually call and snap off a bluff a bunch of times.

[Brain]

Ugh, I have to see this and make a note. Plus, I think Bison's 5% estimate is a little conservative (although maybe not for 5/10, I can't speak for that).

[lil']

Bah, you have to call this river. You'd be surprised.

[Evan]

It seems like a lot of you think I made a bad fold (which I'm still up in the air about). Just out of curiousity, what hand do you put my opponent on that I want to call?

[dejableu]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like a lot of you think I made a bad fold (which I'm still up in the air about). Just out of curiousity, what hand do you put my opponent on that I want to call?

[/ QUOTE ]
Better question: what hand do you put your opponent on that you want to fold? Think about it. If he had a Q or an 8, he easily could have check-raised you on the turn. Similarly, if he just hit a full house on the river, he would have gone for a check-raise because you showed aggression on every street and there was no reason to think you would check. This bet is almost always going to be a bluff, much more than the odds require for your call to be correct.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like a lot of you think I made a bad fold (which I'm still up in the air about). Just out of curiousity, what hand do you put my opponent on that I want to call?

[/ QUOTE ]


I occasionally see this on Party from either someone with a hand that doesn't want you checking the river, or someone with nothing trying to push me off AK.

[Evan]

Read this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=smallholdem&amp;Number=993638&amp; Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=johnny%20boom%20boom&amp;Search page=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Main=993638&amp;Search=true&amp;where=body sub&amp;Name=7540&amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=1&amp;newertype=m&amp;o lderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post993638) thread. I usually play the Party 3/6 and the Stars 5/10 is noticably tougher, some of these guys are good (although no read on this one).

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
I occasionally see this on Party ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thsi was Stars if anyone didn't notice and thinks that matters.

[dejableu]

I don't understand your reasoning. If you think your hand is best in the situation where you have A9 and the board is Axx, why would you check-call the flop and turn and then bet on the river? What purpose does this serve you when you think you have the best hand?

[Evan]

read johnny Boom Boom's first post in the thread, he explains it really well. After having a long conversation about it one day with SFer I agree that it's a very good way to play the hand.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand your reasoning. If you think your hand is best in the situation where you have A9 and the board is Axx, why would you check-call the flop and turn and then bet on the river? What purpose does this serve you when you think you have the best hand?


[/ QUOTE ]

This line is optimal. Your incorrect to assume hero has the best hand here. He's either way ahead of a big pair (KK-TT) or way behind a big ace (AK-AT, or AA). Therefore, showing aggression on the flop or turn serves no purpose because his opponent will likely fold a hand that has 2 outs or raise with a hand that hero is drawing very thinly to. The main idea here is that Evan neends to get to a showdown.

The reasoning behind the river bet is to avoid KK-TT getting a free showdown.

edit - the great thing about this line is that only the strongest of hands will raise this river.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Thsi was Stars if anyone didn't notice and thinks that matters.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this makes the decision a little closer, but I can't imagine stars being that tight (and by tight I mean they aren't clowns) that folding the river is correct. If it is, you shouldn't play there.

[Evan]

I'm only playing there to clear a bonus.

[joker122]

I see.

[BottlesOf]

I'm thikning you may not want to bet on the turn given three calls on an uncoordinated flop and a pairing second pair, putting a possible flush out there when you have less than top pair.

That being said, the way you play this, you call this river.

[BottlesOf]

Meh, I'm personally not doing this bonus, as I'm clearing bonuses at 4 other sites. I think you should be clearing bonuses on UB, party and Full Tilt, not wasting your time with this rock garden. &lt;/.02&gt;

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thikning you may not want to bet on the turn given three calls on an uncoordinated flop and a pairing second pair, putting a possible flush out there when you have less than top pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like checking the turn with 2 left to act on a drawy board, and still 2 overcards that can hurt you. I like betting and folding to a raise.

[BottlesOf]

Yeah good point. I don't often advocate making this check. I thought this might be a spot for it. Perhaps not... Still, I see some value in checking and seeing what the action may be...

It's just that this spot sucks and I see no good way out. Evan, you got served.

[Evan]

I can't quit school = I'm not going to try the Full Tilt bonus

[norgule]

Check out the post by Ed Miller about folding to one bet on the river.
I'm not arguing any point here, but I think the answer you're looking for is there.

[Evan]

I know what Ed Miller says, but there are still times when a river fold is correct, I wasn't sure if this was one though and I'm still not.

[MAxx]

IMO this is an easy river call. you think the 3 helped him any? i doubt it, and i realize this was not the reason you folded. i mean, you got this far.... why fold for one more on a blank. sure he may have a better hand and might be scared it would get check through.... but I think often enough... he will be pushing garbage at you. This odd bet from him needs to be called for info, it's cheap, and there is a good enough chance your hand is goot.

[BottlesOf]

It's not.

[Evan]

If you like folding to a turn raise then why am I calling the bet on the river?

[sfer]

Eek. I'm willing to get pwned on one hand if I get to profitably snap off a bluff 1 in 9 times. I would call here.

[Evan]

i just don't see how this could be a bluff. But the concensus agreement is that I should call so I guess have have much learnign to do.

[joker122]

Simple. It's a bluff more often.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like a lot of you think I made a bad fold (which I'm still up in the air about). Just out of curiousity, what hand do you put my opponent on that I want to call?

[/ QUOTE ]

A /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif might bet sometimes, hoping to fold AK.

[sfer]

Here's how it could be a bluff. He just finished watching the most recent WPT event, he has 76s, his draw missed on the river, and he hears Mike Sexton in his head saying, "The only change he has to win this pot is by betting. You have to admire this guy's heart. He really earned that pot."

1 time in 9 dude. You don't have to be right very often to make it worth your while.

[dejableu]

You think check-calling all the way and then snapping off a semi-bluff bet on the river is optimal? Blech.

First, when Hero is ahead, you assume that his opponent is going to bet out. But what if, fearful of that A, his opponent with KK, e.g., checks behind on the flop or (worse yet) on the turn? Then Hero has given away a free opportunity to hit a two-outer.

Now, what about the big ace hands that Hero trails? Remember, if Hero has A9 with an A on the board, he can take little solace in the fact that "only the strongest of hands will raise." When he's behind, those are exactly the hands that he is up against.

Hero is heads-up with top pair and he should play like it. If he bets, he either takes down the pot right there or he at least charges hands that he has dominated. By contrast, if he is behind, he likely runs into a raise on the flop or turn, and if he makes a good read he can save himself at least 1 big bet by getting away from the hand.

And none of this changes the fact the check-call followed by the bet from nowhere is often, if not usually, a bluff. It is therefore correct to call (or raise) when you see it. Most players who have a huge hand and someone behind them betting every street will go for a check-raise because it (a) wins them more money and (b) makes them appear "clever."

[Nate tha' Great]

re: River fold

You suck.

[Evan]

re: A lot of things
I suck

I've been convinced that this was a bad fold.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
re: A lot of things
I suck

I've been convinced that this was a bad fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, this isn't the sort of hand that lends itself particularly well to analysis. It's a straight up value proposition: is he bluffing, or value betting a weaker hand, more than one times in 9? Based on my experience, he is.

[Evan]

Based on my experience he isn't, but a lot of you guys would know way better than me, that's why I asked. Thanks for the responses everyone.