I'm a calling station? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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AdamL

09-25-2004, 06:49 AM

Or is this pot too big to fold on the river, even with ace high?

Is there even a mass at which you shouldn't fold ace high?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG+2 posts a blind of $3. MP3 posts a blind of $3.
2 folds, UTG+2 (poster) checks, 2 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Button folds, Hero calls.

River: (12 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB
Main Pot: 14 BB, between MP3, CO and Hero.

Cerril

09-25-2004, 06:52 AM

With a one-card straight on the board at the turn, I think that's about where I check/fold. If I don't do that I'd definitely plan to call it down if things proceed as they did (bet, fold).

I don't have a big enough piece of this and I'd feel like I'd need to improve to take it down (i.e. I'm not getting everyone to fold no matter what I do) if I'm not drawing dead already.

AdamL

09-25-2004, 07:45 AM

Maybe this one wasn't the best example, I should have looked more carefully at it first.

I'm still really not clear on when you are justified in calling a guy down with ace-high. Obviously when they are maniacs, but what about the pot size and normal players?

Evan

09-25-2004, 07:55 AM

Turn call makes no sense to me and the river check-call makes even less. He's not raising the turn with a hand that's behind Ace high and thers a decent chance you're drawing dead. Fold to the turn raise. Calling the river is just wrong and don't throw an Ed Miller quote at me. You're hand has no showdown value. If you're going to put money in the pot on the river it has to be a bet and hope he folds the winner (which he won't), you will never win this pot by calling.

bisonbison

09-25-2004, 07:56 AM

Evan makes a compelling case. I bet-fold the turn.

AdamL

09-25-2004, 08:29 AM

I think you guys are right. I'm just not sure when you *do* call down with ace high against normal opponents. I used to never do it.

Evan

09-25-2004, 08:40 AM

It's hard to define a rule for when to see a SD with ace high. But I can tell you this. When someone raises the turn after you've shown aggression with a board that connected, they can beat unimproved AK 98% of the time. You won't be getting 49-1 very often, so you can fold in spots like this every time without losing anything. If the player is a LAG to the very extreme than maybe it's a call down, but that requires a very specific read that you're very confident in.

David BB

09-25-2004, 09:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys are right. I'm just not sure when you *do* call down with ace high against normal opponents. I used to never do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dug a couple of ace high hands out of my pokertracker, hope they make sense to you:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 3-bets, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero caps, MP3 calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.75 BB

---------------------------------

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Evan

09-25-2004, 09:57 AM

Hand 1: I assume youre putting MP3 on a busted flush draw and you figured one the other guy folded you were good. No one has shown any aggression the whole hand and witht a pair on the baord there are less hands that beat you. I like the river call since the pot is big.

Hand 2: First of all I'm raising the turn since I don't think he woudl lead with a 7 and it's unlikely he has a 2 or 3 (I know it's Part but c'mon, it is unlikely). If you raise the turn you can probably get a free showdown unimproved or bet if you pair up. The river call is fine and I would expect to see a worse ace.

David BB

09-25-2004, 10:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: I assume youre putting MP3 on a busted flush draw and you figured one the other guy folded you were good. No one has shown any aggression the whole hand and witht a pair on the baord there are less hands that beat you. I like the river call since the pot is big.

[/ QUOTE ]

MP3 was the one who 3-bet me pre-flop I had him on AK or AQ (he had AQo).

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: First of all I'm raising the turn since I don't think he woudl lead with a 7 and it's unlikely he has a 2 or 3 (I know it's Part but c'mon, it is unlikely). If you raise the turn you can probably get a free showdown unimproved or bet if you pair up. The river call is fine and I would expect to see a worse ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

In retrospect raising the turn would have been better but I dont think it matters much either way. If he really does have a 7 hes going to 3-bet me, but fold if hes bluffing. Since I was planning to call a river bet anyway I would win an extra bet from him when he was bluffing and lose less when hes was not.

He showed A6o (without the 6 of spades) and took it down with his rivered two outer /images/graemlins/mad.gif