need a good turn....

[Jules22]

this hand occured at my local 3/6 live game, where i was pretty much the only one involved in this hand who had any idea about anything, the other players were prety much rocks who sat this hand out. i sat utg + 1 and raised it with AHTH folds to mp2 (loose, passive) who called with what i imagine could be anything, suited or not. folded around to the cutoff(loose passive) who called and the big blind(loose but a little more sensible postflop, still fishy) came around for the ride as well. the blind structure at this casino is stupid, as it goes bb3 sb2 button1, so the button and the sb contributed one more small bet just in blinds between them. so 4 of us went to the flop for 9 small bets. the flop came jh9d4s. the big blind checked to me, i checked (one mistake i think, but thats another question for another time) mp2 then bet,the cutoff called, the big blind folded and i.... folded?? is that too tight vs two players who you could theoretically be ahead of with ace high, not to mention a couple of good draws that could come with a turn? thanks in advance for input /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[StellarWind]

I don't like the fold. Your backdoor draws are good and your ten will often be an out. Counting the backdoors you have 9 nominal outs here. Of course a large discount is appropriate for your overcard outs, but I think 11-1 to close the action is a good deal.

You think you might have the best hand when you see this flop? Your opponents are passive and unlikely to raise a PFR with this type of flop? You don't have position and need to call a bet anyway?

I think you should bet the flop. It really doesn't cost much compared to checkcalling and good things happen when you bet.

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
. Counting the backdoors you have 9 nominal outs here. Of course a large discount is appropriate for your overcard

[/ QUOTE ]
how do you come to 9 outs,can you explain ,i never know how to count backdoors

[TRWIII]

Using SSHE backdoor straight and flush draws are worth around 1.5 outs apiece, so the 9 outs are three aces, three tens, and an out and a half for both the straight and flush backdoors.

TRWIII

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
how do you come to 9 outs,can you explain ,i never know how to count backdoors

[/ QUOTE ]
3 for the aces, 3 for the tens, 1.5 for the backdoor flush, and 1.5 for the backdoor straight draw.

Let me emphasize that this is just a nominal count. You need to take a *large* discount. Maybe ace=2, ten=1, backdoor straight=1 (two of the possible straights are one-card not the nuts), and backdoor flush=1.5. That makes 5.5. But it's still easy at 11-1.

The backdoor straight draw is AJT9. It completes three ways (KQ, Q8, 87) which is the maximum possible for a backdoor straight draw. Take 0.5 outs for each possible way.

These are approximations for use in deciding to call the turn. Backdoors don't really translate directly into outs and their exact value is situation dependent, but 1.5 is close enough most of the time.

Suppose that you have a through ticket to the river, but you are counting your outs to decide whether you want to bet your good draw. In this case the 1.5 rule does not hold. A backdoor flush draw is 1 out. A backdoor straight draw is 1/3 out per way to complete.