a hand vs jimmyv

[bicyclekick]

I open JJ mp1 and JimmyV is to my immeidate left and 3 bets. bb calls. The last time I opened he 3 bet and I check/folded. Not that it probably has antying to do with anything.

Flop comes J54 all clubs.
bb checks.

What's your standard opperating procedure and WHY?

EDIT - bb's note is:
{{VPIP: 28, PFR: 17, AGG: 1.5
Hands: 610, RiverF: 26, CR: 3.66
WSD: 38, W$SD: 51
ASB: 43, CCPF: 0
WF-F: 9, WF-T: 3, W$SD-BR: 74}}

[STLantny]

Check raise/cap the flop, most likely you are still ahead. IF another club comes, check/call the turn, unless you think a raise can get you a free showdown, which it most likely wont. River should play itself.

[random]

Bet, expect a raise, then three-bet. The worst thing you can do is let him bet, BB call, you raise, and they both call. Obviously you want the BB with a bad flush draw out when facing two bets, and the times when he has the ace or king, he'll have to pay the max when you three-bet. I'd also be more than willing to go multiple bets on the turn if a non-club falls.

[Clarkmeister]

" open JJ mp1 and JimmyV is to my immeidate left and 3 bets. bb calls."

4-bets, 4-bets, 4-bets.

[JimmyV]

The PREVIOUS hand, when bkick folded the flop after I three-bet him preflop, I had held AhKh and the flop was Kd 8h 6h or some such. I think if only the K had been black maybe he'da played back at me on that flop....

JimmyV

[bicyclekick]

Yeah the previous hand I'd opened black ATo from mp2 and you 3 bet me from the CO. The flop came 89K with 2 hearts and I check/folded.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
" open JJ mp1 and JimmyV is to my immeidate left and 3 bets. bb calls."

4-bets, 4-bets, 4-bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm not quite thinking at the next level yet...Care to disect why I should be 4 betting him here? Does it change if it's HU?

[Clarkmeister]

You opened in middle position and got 3-bet. You have two jacks. There's a clown in the BB along for the ride. You have two jacks. You are worried about the perception that you are weak when isolated. You have two jacks. All of these are reasons to 4-bet.




As an aside, if you are seriously only 4-betting after getting 3-bet with QQ, KK and AA, you are playing way way too predictably and conservatively, especially in situations where your open raise is in middle position. Good players will notice this and torture you.

[bicyclekick]

I'll cap AKo, AKs and other hands as weak as 77 or KQ if the situation is right (like on a steal), but my oppening in middle and getting 3 bet by a good player also in middle isn't what I call a good situation to start capping with less than the best hands.

I guess also him 3 betting me twice is not exactly him isolating the crap outa me.

I dunno, you got me thinking, and that's good. I really want to get to that next level of thinking the better players have.

I'm gonna sleep on it and see what I think tomorrow.

[NLfool]

if you don't cap it with JJ here heads up and your opponent has something like 88 and position if the flop comes all big like KQx he's going to take shots at you since calling 3 bets is most likely TT, JJ, AQ.

Now if you cap it and bet the flop when 2 overs come he isn't going to be so liberal and if he comes back at you, well he's got the goods and you can be done with it. Not to mention it is mostly likely the best hand preflop here.

Now take this thought with a grain of salt as according to PT I'm in the red the last week with JJ

[skp]

I don't have a problem with the idea to 4 bet but this idea that your failure to do so will lead good players to torture you is hyperbole.

[steveyz]

Bet the flop looking to 3-bet. If it's capped, bet any non-club turn and just call a raise.

[Clarkmeister]

"this idea that your failure to do so will lead good players to torture you is hyperbole. "

Online it's hyperbole. Live it's reality if it's a regular opponent.

[Clarkmeister]

"isn't what I call a good situation to start capping with less than the best hands."

I guess my point is that JJ *isn't* less than the best hands. It's the 4th best hand. It's a monster in this specific situation.

[JimmyV]

[ QUOTE ]
"isn't what I call a good situation to start capping with less than the best hands."

I guess my point is that JJ *isn't* less than the best hands. It's the 4th best hand. It's a monster in this specific situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then again (and this isn't to say I might not have 99 in such a scenario) there's no way my three-bet means less than AQ. AT, AJ, and KQ are all in the muck. So if I were bkick here I'd be apt to prefer to see a flop before going nuts with my JJ.

Bkick MIGHT be way ahead vs my TT or 99, but if not the flop could bring lots of bad cards for him. Ten to be exact. (What percentage of the time is that anyway?)

JimmyV

[Clarkmeister]

"Then again (and this isn't to say I might not have 99 in such a scenario) there's no way my three-bet means less than AQ. AT, AJ, and KQ are all in the muck. So if I were bkick here I'd be apt to prefer to see a flop before going nuts with my JJ."

I'm not going to comment on your specific range of raising hands since obviously I don't know, but I'd guess there are very few party players who have a very narrow 99-AA, AQ AK 3-betting range when someone opens from MP.


"but if not the flop could bring lots of bad cards for him. Ten to be exact. (What percentage of the time is that anyway?)"

He's going to flop an overpair or set something in the neighborhood of 60% of the time.

Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the BB adds lots of equity to his preflop 4-bet. It also radically changes the dynamic of how each of you must play against him postflop since he 4-bet *both* of you.

[SinCityGuy]

This is an important concept that I picked up from Clarkmeister some time ago. Also, keep in mind, it's only one small bet. Big deal. You get more equity from the BB's weaker hand, plus you get the value of deception and flexibility post-flop.

[Gabe]

It's an exaggeration to call it a hyperbole.

[CDs_Nts]

I say go nuts with the raises until something tells you differently, especially after the flop. Hell, I might even 3-bet the turn (if a non-club falls) if he raises my bet, especially with the BB still in there. Even if someone's got the flush (fairly unlikely) you have quite a few outs, and you can hope he's got an overpair with a club, and will call you down. You can't afford to play the 4th best possible hand like a sissy-girl. The only time I usually slowplay a high pocket pair is when I'm in the big blind and there are already several callers.

[Nate tha' Great]

It's not a matter of information leakage, which is a secondary concern here. It's a matter of value, pure and simple; your hand has a shitload of equity in this game against a typical 3-bet hand and a typical BB cold calling hand.

[JimmyV]

Yeah, I would cap preflop in bicyclekick's shoes probably 35% of the time. But if it was not JimmyV doing the three-betting I would cap 80% of the time.

[1800GAMBLER]

What the hell is with these percentages? 35% you have heavy music on and cap?

[7Dave]

[ QUOTE ]
35% you have heavy music on and cap?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bachman Turner Overdrive /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

/d

[Hofzinser]

It's blowing it out of proportion to say it's an exaggeration to call it hyperbole.

[JimmyV]

[ QUOTE ]
It's blowing it out of proportion to say it's an
exaggeration to call it hyperbole.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is overstated. I'll leave others to elaborate.

[JimmyV]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to comment on your specific range of raising hands since obviously I don't know, but I'd guess there are very few party players who have a very narrow 99-AA, AQ AK 3-betting range when someone opens from MP.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm one of 'em, however few there are.

[ QUOTE ]

He's going to flop an overpair or set something in the neighborhood of 60% of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

Although even if he flops an overpair I could still have an overoverpair as far as he knows.

But yes, he'll get better information from my postflop actions if he caps preflop. So he shoulda done so. --Especially because in this case I folded to one bet on the flop. (AQo no club.)

JimmyJimmyV