No child left behind...

[tolbiny]

The economy seems to continually correct itself, and the differencese between kerry and bush on the current Iraq policy are negliable (or unexplained), But programs like No Child seriosly damage systems that have no methods of self correction built into them (unlike the economy).
This is an interesting article that points out what are definate flaws in the system (imo). yes its a pretty left leaning paper a lot of the times, but worth reading.

No child (http://www.freetimes.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid= 539)

[sam h]

You can debate the merits of eduction reform and no child left behind all day but one thing stands out about this disaster: It's hard to make a program work if you don't actually fund it.

Who would have thought?

[nef]

John Kerry supports NCLB according to his website:

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/education/

here is the actual document:

http://www.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/esea02/107-110.pdf

I am going to read the act, but some of the things in the article make the act sound very flawed. Does you guys really think it is a conspiracy to force privatization of education?

[tolbiny]

Thanks for the link, i will give a shot at reading the act aswell.
As i mentioned the paper seems to left lean a little so i expect some exagerations, but they dont have a rep for out and out lying at all.
I think a lot of people could make a lot of money from the privitization of schools.

[adios]

Let's get one thing straight here. Education spending during the Bush administration has far surpassed education spending during the Clinton administration to the tune of approximately 50% more. Furthermore education spending during the Bush administration has grown at an annualized rate of 11% per year. Far outpacing the growth of the economy. During the Clinton administration education spending grew at an annualized rate of 2% per year.

The problem in Cleveland Heights is that many of the black students there have migrated from the the city of Cleveland proper where the Heights school system had no control over how the city of Cleveland kids were educated. Although the racial make up of Cleveland Heights has been changing for quite some time so I'm not sure how much of a factor that is now. My understanding of NCLB is that all students are held to the same standard irregardless of race or gender. Looks like the Heights school system will have it's work cut out for them in the next 9 or 10 years. My understanding is that NCLB is stressing individual accountability something that Bill Cosby has been talking about. I saw an article yesterday stating that Cleveland was the poorest big city in the U.S.

[tolbiny]

Adios,
The problem in Cleveland Heights is that many of the black students there have migrated from the the city of Cleveland proper where the Heights school system had no control over how the city of Cleveland kids were educated. Although the racial make up of Cleveland Heights has been changing for quite some time so I'm not sure how much of a factor that is now. My understanding of NCLB is that all students are held to the same standard irregardless of race or gender. Looks like the Heights school system will have it's work cut out for them in the next 9 or 10 years. My understanding is that NCLB is stressing individual accountability something that Bill Cosby has been talking about. I saw an article yesterday stating that Cleveland was the poorest big city in the U.S.

I don't know what you are attempting to say with this paragraph. The problem with NCLB is that it unfairly punishes certain school systems. Cleveland Heights (CH)city school district (where i happen to live) ranks well above the state averages for both white and black (its two main racial demographics) students for standarized testing. People within the CH school district believe that the test scores for the black students are lower in large part due to the influx of students from surrounding schools which have not given them an appropriate background. They come from these schools because CH is know for giving a decent education to their students. The school system of CH is not failing it s students, it is providing for its students better than most (in Ohio). HOWEVER, because of the NCLB act, CH schools will soon be losing funding as a failing school system. This is not a flaw of the CH school system, it is a flaw inherent to NCLB.

My understanding is that NCLB is stressing individual accountability


I dont know where to begin on this statement. the NCLB act does not stress individual accountability, it generalizes all schools and ignores the different makeups of each community. This is the opposite of individual accountability, these systems (that by any important statistic are working) are being forced into the general homogony of the plan.

[Taxman]

The NCLB act is complete BS. It promises funds but only after schools reach certain goals which are difficult to attain without more money. It also is grossly unfair to underprivlaged schools, which can never expect to meet the demands made by the act. Your numbers really don't indicate that the education system has improved.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what you are attempting to say with this paragraph.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I make a few points that you make.

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with NCLB is that it unfairly punishes certain school systems. Cleveland Heights (CH)city school district (where i happen to live) ranks well above the state averages for both white and black (its two main racial demographics) students for standarized testing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You and I both know that the racial demographics of Cleveland Heights haven't changed overnight. The fact of the matter is that it's been a gradual change over a long period of time. I'd be willing to guess that the Heights school system has had over 50% black students for 20 years. Therefore there are many black kids that have been educated in the Heights school system.

[ QUOTE ]
People within the CH school district believe that the test scores for the black students are lower in large part due to the influx of students from surrounding schools which have not given them an appropriate background.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm familiar with this argument as it was one point I mentioned when I stated:

The problem in Cleveland Heights is that many of the black students there have migrated from the the city of Cleveland proper where the Heights school system had no control over how the city of Cleveland kids were educated.

You and I both know that the city of Cleveland kids that migrate to the Heights school system are from the Cleveland ghettos for lack of a better term. I think we could agree that their education may be lacking to some degree so the Heights school system gets kids with educational problems that were created in the Cleveland public schools and not in the Heights public schools.

[ QUOTE ]
They come from these schools because CH is know for giving a decent education to their students.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
The school system of CH is not failing it s students, it is providing for its students better than most (in Ohio).

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok.

[ QUOTE ]
HOWEVER, because of the NCLB act, CH schools will soon be losing funding as a failing school system. This is not a flaw of the CH school system, it is a flaw inherent to NCLB.

[/ QUOTE ]

It may point out a flaw but I'm not convinced that is what the problem is in the Heights school system. Here's where you and I begin to go astray I believe. To what degree is Cleveland Heights affected by the migration of students to the Heights school system? Again the demographics of Cleveland Heights haven't changed overnight. There are a lot of black students that have matriculated throught the Heights school system.

Here's an explanation of the NCLB as it applies to student performane:

What is "adequate yearly progress"? How does measuring it help to improve schools? (http://www.ed.gov/nclb/accountability/schools/accountability.html)

No Child Left Behind requires each state to define adequate yearly progress for school districts and schools, within the parameters set by Title I. In defining adequate yearly progress, each state sets the minimum levels of improvement--measurable in terms of student performance--that school districts and schools must achieve within time frames specified in the law. In general, it works like this: Each state begins by setting a "starting point" that is based on the performance of its lowest-achieving demographic group or of the lowest-achieving schools in the state, whichever is higher. The state then sets the bar--or level of student achievement--that a school must attain after two years in order to continue to show adequate yearly progress. Subsequent thresholds must be raised at least once every three years, until, at the end of 12 years, all students in the state are achieving at the proficient level on state assessments in reading/language arts and math.

Therefore the bar is set by the state of Ohio and it is set to the level of the lowest demographic acheiving group or of the lowest-achieving schools in the state, whichever is higher. This seems to be a low standard to me and in light of what we've discussed I fail to see why this presents a problem for the Heights school system.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know where to begin on this statement. the NCLB act does not stress individual accountability, it generalizes all schools and ignores the different makeups of each community.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I can tell the bar is set pretty close to the lowest standard possible and does take into account the demographics of the school system.

[ QUOTE ]
This is the opposite of individual accountability, these systems (that by any important statistic are working) are being forced into the general homogony of the plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I wouldn't call it working when the school system seems to be failing one demographic group. Again the demographics of the Heights school system has not changed over night. You'd have to quantify your argument that the migration from other schools is keeping the acheivments of black kids in the Heights schools artifically low. At some point parents and students have to be accountable for their performance.

[tolbiny]

The problem with the CH school system is not adequete yearly progress, it is the current gap between white and black students achievment. For the system to gain an acceptable rating it must also have their white students continue to increase their test scores. So the system faces the issue of increasing the test scores of the white students, aswell as increasing the test score of the black students by MORE than the white students in an attempt to gain on them (this without any input of ideas or funding for how to do this, simply a mandate that it must be done).

"You and I both know that the racial demographics of Cleveland Heights haven't changed overnight. The fact of the matter is that it's been a gradual change over a long period of time. I'd be willing to guess that the Heights school system has had over 50% black students for 20 years. Therefore there are many black kids that have been educated in the Heights school system."

The racial demographics of cleveland heights is not the problem, it is the influx of new students each year. Yes this has been happening for the last 20 years. The problem is that in a vast majority of the cases the new students come into the CH school system from a school that is lacking in resouces (ie the ghettos surrounding cleveland), and that they tend to come in around 8-10th grade. As the article pointed out it takes 2-4 years for a student to cath up when coming from an "inferior" system. But after they turn 18 they are gone, done, out of high school, and during that time 3 more years of kids without a solid background have moved into the school. So even if the percentage of the school system that are from imports from underachieving systems stays the same they 25% of them will still be new to the system every year. In fact the acievement of the black students in CH schools who have spent their entire lives in the system is something like 3-5% below the white students (still a gap but thats pretty darn good imo). This problem will only get worse- why? because as CH struggles to increase the test score it will always advertise its successes, and this will make more parents eager to get their kids into their school systems. There is virtually no way for CH schools to reach 100% proficiency in 12 years, it is an impossible mandate for them.

Actaully it is an impossible standard for all schools to meet.
Here is an example of how incredibly difficult it can get.
The NCLB act has two main mandates
1. That every school must achieve 100% proficiency in 12 years.
2. That during that time a school system cannont have 2 consecutive years of decresing test scores (based upon the previous high).

A small town system in average america has 1,000 students. In year X of 12 of the NCLB act they have achieved a proficiency rate of 93%. During the past Y number of years they have averaged an increse of 1% per year (or 10 more students every year passing the proficiency tests). Since this is an average it is nota seady growth, in fact in year X+1 they have an increse of 3.5% (or an extra 35 students passing in stead of 10) pushing them to 96.5% proficiency. The next year they drop in proficiecny to 94.5%, they are now an at risk school. If the next year they pull up to 96% proficiency they would
A. Be right at their average growth for three years.
B. Probably be in the top 1% of all schools in the country for test scores. and finally
C. be deemed a failing school and begin to lose funding.

Once this situation occcurs C is mandated by law. Because of one year of abnormally high test scores the entire school system is considered failing. This is a serious, serious flaw in NCLB.