Big Big stack versus small small stack heads up (all in strat)?

[Buckmulligan]

Let's say for instance, you are heads up and have a large chip advantage. In this situation, it is often correct to call a bet preflop even if you know you are a 3:2 dog, because you know that you are a favorite to eliminate him in one of 2 3:2 confrontations, giving oyu the win. My question is, what kind of chip advantage does one need to feel comfortable, with going all in against a small stack heads up opponent or calling his all in to get good value on eliminating the player in a confrontation? For example, should you have 10x his chips? 5x his chips to comfortably not care what hole cards he has to gamble several consecutive times to win the tourney?

I think this strategy is legit (obviously if you have 5000 chips and he has 100, you would be crazy not to continually push) but at what point does your chip advantage warrant this strategy to take place?

[Nicholasp27]

Ok, i'll take a stab at it...i'm a newbie though, so someone correct me if i'm wrong...

let's start by saying you are 4x the 2nd place guy in heads up...so u have 6400 chips to their 1600 chips (at small pp sngs)

Independent Chip Model shows your equity to be .46 right now.

If you win, u win the tourney!

If you lose, u drop to 4800 vs 3200, making your EV .42

.42/.46=.91
.91/.09=10.1

so u'd need to be a 1:10.1 underdog to not do it...which no cards are that bad off, so you should call with anything...it'll more than break even over the long run

so what about 3x their stack?

6000 vs 2000

your ev is .45 to start..

if u lose, you go to 4000 vs 4000, or .4 ev

so .4/.45=.88 .88/.12= 7.4, so u'd do this as well


basically, ur ev doesn't change much once ur final two, as it can only from .3 (2nd) to .5 (1st)...so it's good to call when ur 3x or more, as u win if lucky, tied if unlucky

the real problem comes when u are shortstacked...

if u have 2000 to their 6000, then ur ev is .35

if u win, u go up to .4 so .875/.125=7:1

AA is only .85 against a random hand, .87 against ax, pp only

so even AA isn't good enough for this to be a break even proposition if u only have 2000, which matches the fact that big stack needs to call no matter what, because they are at better than break even, even with 26o vs AA


however, if u are tied, u have to be 4:1 by this math, so u need an 80% hand, or q's or better to risk calling their all in

but that doesn't take into account the fact that if u fold, ur equity goes down anyway due to the blinds...


in fact, none of this did, so i'll have to rethink that part of it...it's not as straight-forward as all of that



another thing to keep in mind is if u go all-in first hand, ur ev goes from .1 to .184, or 54% raise, so any hand that is 54% or better against a decent hand (whoever calls all-in will have decent hand), is a break-even or better proposition...plus most of the time u won't have any callers, so u'll steal the blinds...

lots of hands are 1.2:1 faves against random hands (Q8o and better are 1.2:1 faves)

but if someone calls ur all-in, then they prolly have a premium hand

if they have 99+, ak, aq then only qq or better is + ev

if they'll call with 55+, at+, a8s+ then 1010+ and ak is + ev

so if u wanna go all in to give urself that increase in equity, i'd do it only with 1010+ or ak to protect urself against the quality of ur callers (unless a fishy table)

[jack spade23]

I wouldnt suggest simply calling his all in simply because you have the chi lead. If he recognizes this, then he will go all in realizing that you will call, or that he can slow play someting and you will do the work for him by going all in. Also, going all in could simply just win you the blinds, which heads up wopnt be that big of a deal.

[rachelwxm]

Hi, you missed one thing. In your example of 6400 vs 1600 stack size, if you win, you equity is only 50, not 100. And that change the whole picture.
If you fold, equity=46,
Call and lost equity=42.
Therefore, it’s fair game since 46+46=42+50.
If the blind is zero, you should only call all in when your odds is better than 1:1 to have a long term +EV.

You did not mention blind size comparing to stack. I think that is one very important factor in HP play. Imagine if blind is zero and never increases, you should definitely wait for rockets to call all in! Same is true for your opponent; therefore there is no game here! It will wait till the end of the world when both guys catch AA and one gets lucky on the flush draw! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

So your decision in nonzero blind is try to compare the equity of folding vs your odds against your opponent.

I will leave the analysis to you here. /images/graemlins/cool.gif