QQ with Overcard Flop - What's the play?

[Hooked on Fish]

30/60 game with mix of rocks and mediocre players.

I am in MP with QQ. A solid rock raises UTG, I call, button calls - 3 to the flop.

Flop: A K 10 (rainbow)

UTG bets, I call, button calls.

Turn: Q

What's the play?

My play and results to follow.

[SpaceAce]

OK, you're probably way way behind on this flop. I seriously doubt an AKT flop missed a rock who raised under the gun. You have four outs to a one-card nut straight and two outs to a set of Queens. Your gutshot outs are tainted by a possible split + redraws for AA/KK/AK. Your Queen outs are tainted by the same redraws + they put a four-card Broadway on the board + your set may be dead to the rock's AA/KK. Does anyone else think this looks like an easy fold on the flop? I think this looks 10x as foldable since you didn't three-bet your QQ pre-flop which tells me you're giving serious consideration to the rock having AA/KK. I don't think you'd be trying to "trap" a rock with QQ, especially with people still to act behind you.

You hit your Queen on the turn which is nice but unless you can successfully represent a Jack and scare your opponents out, I think you want a cheap showdown. I don't believe your hand can stand much raising.

SpaceAce

[Hooked on Fish]

Space, excellent analysis. It was probably a fold, but the rock has sometimes (though seldom) mixed his play up in the past by raising 7/8 suited. So, just in case, I did make one call. Very marginal call, I know.

Turn play is forthcoming.

[MrGo]

Did you consider 3-betting pre-flop? I understand the UTG raiser is a rock and could have you beat, but I think a 3-bet here is mandatory to try to get the hand heads up, plus you would have position.

Flop - If you would have raised it preflop, I think having QQ here with this board is easy to fold. If UTG checks to you, you bet. If raised I let it go. You have 6 outs, 2 (other Q's) could be dead to a J, however I don't see tight UTG raising with a AJ - only JJ.

Overall it's a horrible flop for you, but I think you should 3-bet preflop to try to get the hand heads up and play accordingly.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
Space, excellent analysis. It was probably a fold, but the rock has sometimes (though seldom) mixed his play up in the past by raising 7/8 suited. So, just in case, I did make one call. Very marginal call, I know.


Turn play is forthcoming.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do rocks really raise 7-8 pre-flop? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Hooked on Fish]

MrGo, I did consider a 3-bet, however, I know the button and I have seen him play most buttons with UTG raises, so I assumed he would play his button, even with a 3-bet. That's why I did not re-raise. Another situation, most likely I would have 3-bet.

[Hooked on Fish]

Roy, yes, I have seen him raise once with 7/8s and 6/4s in EP during the last year.

[MrGo]

Wouldn't you want to get your money in when you're probably ahead of the button pre-flop? Is the only reason you didn't 3-bet is because of the button's tendancy to call when UTG raises? It somewhat sounds you played your QQ's preflop like QKs.

I'm not berating your play, just stating my view!

[Hooked on Fish]

MrGO, point well taken.

[Hooked on Fish]

Results:

After the turn Q: UTG bets, I raise, button folds, UTG calls.

River: Brick

UTG checks, I bet, UTG folds.

When I turn over my hand, UTG says that he threw away the best hand: 3 Ks.

Would most players throw away 3 Ks here for one bet?

Clearly, I represented the J for the straight with the re-raise, but I'm curious as to how many would actually not make the call on the river.

Thanks

[hakeem]

[ QUOTE ]
Results:

After the turn Q: UTG bets, I raise, button folds, UTG calls.

River: Brick

UTG checks, I bet, UTG folds.

When I turn over my hand, UTG says that he threw away the best hand: 3 Ks.

Would most players throw away 3 Ks here for one bet?

Clearly, I represented the J for the straight with the re-raise, but I'm curious as to how many would actually not make the call on the river.

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you turn over your hand? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Hooked on Fish]

For the future. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Knockwurst]

I think you should have three bet preflop. Flop call is all right. I like betting out or raising a bet on the turn here. I think Sklansky would recommend checking, based on his recommendation in HPFAP that on the turn you check or call if you have a decent amount of outs (ie. flush, straight or boat draw) and bet out if you don't have a lot of outs TPTK or two pair (but maybe I'm wrong about that). In any case I like betting out and if you get reraised you're obviously up against a straight but you have a good number of outs. The only problem is if you're up against a straight and AK or AQ then you're reduced to four outs. But I like a raise here anyway.

[mplspoker]

If your not 3 betting QQ you shouldn't be playing 30/60. Your reasoning is absolutely horrible for not 3 betting....

[TonyBlair]

The idea is to learn on this site I suppose. I think there's every reason to raise preflop here and none against. All your difficult decisions stem from not reraising preflop.
Having said that, if this rock is going to play like this on every hand then by all means call and raise him for fun. He sucks (I have learned to love that phrase), unless he knows you well - in which case he might suck a bit less.

[Hooked on Fish]

You are right. In the future, I won't let the fact that a rock rasied UTG deter my 3-betting Qs.

[elysium]

hi hooked

reraise the pre-flop. fold the flop.

[mmcd]

While these is some room to mix it up and play differently with certain hands preflop, QQ is a hand that I ALWAYS 3-bet an open raiser with.

You can sometimes cold-call AKs, AKo. You might occasionally cold-call (or even fold) JJ. You might cold-call AA or KK against certain opponents. BUT YOU MUST ALWAYS 3-BET QQ!!!!!!

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
Results:
When I turn over my hand, UTG says that he threw away the best hand: 3 Ks.

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you think he was telling the truth?

[Hooked on Fish]

Someone else who knows this player well also questioned whether or not he was telling the truth. Now that I think about it a little longer, perhaps he wasn't, and perhaps he was just bragging about how big of a laydown he is capable of. I have seen him do it before. So, perhaps he wasn't. Who will really know for sure?

[Hooked on Fish]

Elysium,

Yes, re-raise pre-flop is correct. Most of time, this is my normal play.

Let's do a what if on this, if you don't mind.

I re-raise pre-flop, and then he re-raises, then what? Cap or just call?

Then let's use the same flop: A K 10. UTG then checks to me so do I check or bet? If he bets out of the gate, then you recommend folding. But if he checks, do I bet?

Thanks

[bicyclekick]

What an aweful aweful hand. Don't play 30/60 anymore for your own good.

[Hooked on Fish]

How about an analysis of how you would play the hand instead of being condescending?

[goofball]

i have no idea what that means.

don't show your hand. ever.

[Techin]

Okay, we've established you have to three bet the flop. If you had, you'd have odds to call the flop if the button was in. It's not likely you'll chop if you get your card since you're holding two queens. The call is loose without the reraise.
I like the raise on the turn. Many great things can happen. You could get called down by AK, or you could make AA fold. Both are possible depending on your opponent. I've met "rocks" that will make both of these plays. And if you are against a jack, you still have outs. With his check on the river, I like the bet for the same reasons as I like the raise on the turn.
In a multiway pot, I'd probably just call the turn. Because you can narrow the rock's hand down, the raise is good.

[elysium]

hi hooked

cap the pre-flop if you can. if he checks to you, check it down. if the turn doesn't produce a set or straight, check-fold.

with the set, if he checks, betout most of the time. the only time not to is if this is the kind of opponent who would not reraise pre-flop without AA, KK, or AKs, and would also fear the straight, and so would not bet, but would also never fold if bet into. if there is some chance within reason that he is so weak-tight that he might fold a set, then bet if he doesn't fear a slow-play. if he fears a slow-play by you because you have correctly checked down a powerful hand to him recently, either because he may have been ahead or behind, then you should, once again, check-down the turn, even if he might laydown a set that beats you. if you haven't been able to beat this opponent, you are often better off folding when he bets out on the flop and turn. this is getting into an area that requires a higher level of proficiency than what you might pick up here because now, you need to know what that man is holding. if that man is holding a set stronger than yours, you must fold. how can you determine this? i'm still trying to figure that one out. your gut.

[Hooked on Fish]

Elysium,

Much appreciated response. Points well taken, and I agree with the play you present. I also appreciate that you took the time to provide a response as opposed to another poster who just said it was an awful hand and that I shouldn't play 30/60. I'm by no means an expert, and perhaps never will be. But I've had my share of success at 30/60 and higher limits, so I can hold my own. Just looking for a better way to have played this hand. Thanks again.