And Now the Awful...

[Festus22]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">6 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (2 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7 BB

[KingSix]

Raise or fold pre flop.

Why just complete heads up with a hand like T9o? You let him/her see a free flop, they could have 42o for all you know.

Win the big pots, and if you are going to play the small ones, play them aggressively.

King

[Festus22]

Thought 1: This was butchered. Plain and simple.

Thought 2: Is it EVER correct to just complete the SB when it's folded around? A-A maybe? Clearly this hand should have been raised PF. Also, what would be the range of hands to play if the BB is uber-tight, "normal" and loose. Any 2 looks right against a tightie but what about the others? Just normal heads-up play (as spelled out in HPFAP)?

Thought 3: Gotta 3-bet the flop here or C/R the turn. Any preference?

Results: BB shows J-4o for a turned 2-pair. Got what I deserved.

[MicroBob]

i don't think it's EVER correct to just call in the SB after it's been folded around.
An argument can be made for AA but I still wouldn't do it.
you MIGHT induce him to fold to your AA PF. But you're HOPING he has KT or something...or maybe even 88 or something he might like to re-raise you with so that he calls you down all the way and you win a decent pot.


Re-raise the flop. you have the top-pair and he is putting you on a steal (and yes, I thought that before you psoted the results).
If he had a T he probably would have just called your flop-bet. Also, if he had QT, KT or AT I suspect he would have raised PF.


I might raise here with Any A, any K, any connectors and 1-gappers (but throw-away 43, 42 and 32), any two cards higher than 9 (Q9, etc) and maybe Qxs.
If you don't like it there's no shame in folding one lousy dollar. But if you're going to play it you just about HAVE to raise.

[Rico Suave]

Festus:

Any reads here? Why no preflop raise? I know that is the point that everyone will comment on is the lack of a preflop raise. "If you are going to play, then raise...you do not have win the blind all that often to make it profitable" And I agree. But if this is the type of player who will call with anything under any circumstances and takes his hand too far post flop, then I think just completing is reasonable. Against an unknown, I raise or fold.

Postflop, you decide to call this one down after getting raised on the turn. I guess this is ok....the only problem I have here is that this pot is really small, so your effective odds of calling down are like 4.5: 2.5 (not including rake)---not so appealling. On the other hand, folding top pair HU is generally pretty bad. So, what to do?

Well, HU is more art than science, and I failed finger painting in preschool, so I probably cannot help much. Hmmmmm.....I guess there was no real point in responding to your hand. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Okay, since you probably took the time to read my worthless post, I probably should try to provide you with something worthwhile......Considering the line you took, I think betting the river and folding to a raise is better than check calling.

--Rico

[Rico Suave]

Festus:

[ QUOTE ]
Is it EVER correct to just complete the SB when it's folded around?

[/ QUOTE ]

While I do not have the book in from of me, HPFAP did suggest that open limping on the button with certain hands if the blinds defends with anything and everything was reasonable. I guess you could say the same for the sb.

--Rico

[KingSix]

[ QUOTE ]
A-A maybe?

[/ QUOTE ]

BIG maybe, but clearly read dependent.

The fact that it has been folded to your AA in the SB already is bad enough, don't let 83o flop 832 and take the maximum off of you for free.

King

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Thought 3: Gotta 3-bet the flop here or C/R the turn. Any preference?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Definately 3bet the flop. 1. You make him pay if he has a draw (altough, a draw is unlikely on this board) 2. He might check the turn through 3. There are a lot of turn cards that can come that will deter you from checkraising. 4. It would suck to get 3bet on the turn, but wouldn't be as bad to call a cap on the flop.

[StellarWind]

I'm dumbfounded. Where did you all get the notion that it's always wrong to complete the small blind first in? This is not a raise-or-fold situation. No authority I am aware of suggests that it is.

But I'm sure the source that will make you all happy in HPFAP, p.46: "A6o ... you should frequently just call."

The analogy with button/cutoff is not valid. Completing only costs 1/2 bet. You can and should open-complete with a wide range of hands that are far weaker than anything you would normally play first-in from LP.

Sklansky goes on to observe that open-raising all the time (even any two cards) can be correct against a BB who doesn't call enough. But it is not the normal approach for a random online encounter.

The preflop call is routine, boring, and correct.

Having top pair heads up between the blinds is an obscene luxury. Don't waste it. 3-bet the flop. I prefer this to calling and checkraising the turn because I don't want to checkraise if a bad card comes like that jack. Besides, you don't have to choose between 3-betting the flop and checkraising the turn. It is perfectly feasible to do both if the turn blanks. Just pick a reasonable opponent.

[Brian]

Hi Festus,

I was reading through the original responses to your thread, licking my chops and ready to let loose. Then, StellarWind spoiled the party with the last response in the thread, which he nailed dead on. And I'm surprised, because I only seem to agree with him about 50% of the time.

Just completing pre-Flop is a fine play. This is not raise or fold territory. It is call or raise territory. I would raise this nearly every time, but this is probably something I should and will change, thanks to this thread reminding me. I'll go ahead and basically repeat what StellarWind said.

Many people think that completing in this spot is a "tourist" play, and not many people could grasp that anything other than raising or folding would be correct. But, the main reason for you to raise pre-Flop is because it gives you an extra way to win the pot. That is, he may fold. However, especially at the lower limits, they won't be folding often enough to make a raise based soley on stealing profitable. If you do happen to have a tight SB, then you should definitely raise with T9o in this spot, and with every other hand as well. You don't want to do it too often so that he knows what is happening to him, but a raise with any 2 cards will show profit. However, as I just mentioned, this is not the case with 95% of opponents at the lower limits. They simply won't fold often enough for a raise to show value, unless you have a strong enough hand that you can raise for value.

So, the question is how strong is T9o compared to the average BB hand? It is definitely a better hand than many hands the BB will receive, but it's not that much stronger to where a raise pre-Flop is for value. Remember, you're going to be playing the rest of the hand out of position, and even in the hands of an inexperienced novice or awful, loose player, that is quite detrimental. Simply put, if he is rarely going to fold, you're probably best off completing here.

Of course, any information you have on the player would help in your assessment. But, just completing versus an unknown player shouldn't be as frowned upon as it is.

You botched the post-Flop play pretty badly. 3-bet the Flop, and keep firing until the River. Whatever you do, though, don't fold, even if you get raised on the Turn. Too many people way overplay their hands from the blinds, and the pot will generally be large enough that you have the odds to call even if you are behind (to most hands, except of course a monster). Toughen up a bit, though I know it's hard in a losing streak.

-Brian

[Joe Tall]

The first thing is very important, so listen up.

#1 - Find a different table.

#2 - 3-bet the flop.

Peace,
Joe Tall