Giving your hand away to induce a fold (Limit)

[poindexter]

Lately my monster hands have been getting outdrawn by loose players who have no idea what bubble strategy is. Say I have pocket QQ would it be ok to type, "I have QQ" in a situation where I am against an overly protective big blind that will call with Ax in any situation. After the flop comes xxx rainbow I wish I could give my hand away to discourage anymore drawing. How unethical is this play?

[JDO]

In live play you would lose the hand as soon as you gave away what you had. It is considered unethical. I don't see why on-line play should be any different.

[durron597]

Play more hands. Eventually you will start to get paid off instead of drawn out on.

Where are the bad beat police when you need them?

[rjb03]

I tend to like to gain chips with the best hands, QQ no doubt being one of them, on the bubble or not. He is making a mistake by drawing with one overcard to any flop, and others' mistakes make you money (or chips). Also, if he is calling with A high on an xxx flop he probably already thinks he is drawing to one overcard, so announcing your hand would not change his mind.

[Jman28]

Whether it's unethical or not it's a horrible play.

If you tell someone your hand heads up, they can easily make the correct play.

When they play correctly, you don't win anything.

[RcrdBoy]

Don't you want Axo to call you?

[CrisBrown]

Hi poindexter,

[ QUOTE ]
Lately my monster hands have been getting outdrawn by loose players who have no idea what bubble strategy is. Say I have pocket QQ would it be ok to type, "I have QQ" in a situation where I am against an overly protective big blind that will call with Ax in any situation. After the flop comes xxx rainbow I wish I could give my hand away to discourage anymore drawing. How unethical is this play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether it's unethical is irrelevant; it's simply bad poker. Remember, the FTOP says that whenever your opponents play exactly as they would if they could see your cards, they gain, and you lose. What you've done is to ensure that they can't make an FTOP mistake against you, unless they miscalculate pot odds, etc.

Yes, good hands (like QQ) get outdrawn. It happens. That being said, when you bet with the best hand, and provided your opponent isn't getting the right price to call you ... you actually want him to call. Provided you're betting enough to kill his pot odds, he's making an FTOP mistake to call your QQ with Ax. Over the long run, those mistakes add up to money in your bankroll.

However, one problem that you can encounter, especially at limit games, is the "schooling effect" of fishy players. That is, because so many of them are calling, they end up giving each other correct odds to chase you, even if you're betting your hand. Ironically, because they're all playing badly, they end up playing correctly!

The way to combat that is to revalue your hands. "Edge pairs" (QQ-TT) diminish in value when the schooling effect is in play. Strong drawing hands go up in value, because you'll be getting good odds to play them, and the pots are most likely to be won by "improved hands."

In short, when the fish are schooling, you need to adopt more of an Omaha strategy, looking to make sets, straights, flushes, and full houses ... get out when you can't make a hand ... and charge them like heck when you do.

Good luck!

Cris

[3rdEye]

This isn't unethical--it's stupid. You WANT people to chase you in these situations. In the long run, you'll earn far more than you lose when the fish stay in.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
In live play you would lose the hand as soon as you gave away what you had. It is considered unethical. I don't see why on-line play should be any different.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you wouldn't not HU, I don't see a problem with it, other than the fact its idiotic, lol. Man these bad beat stories get more subtle everyday, or is it just me. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards Mack

[SmileyEH]

Don't play any hands, that way you will never be outdrawn.

-SmileyEH

[poindexter]

Thanks all for replying

If the game were NL I would agree that going all in with the best hand is always the right play. However, its limit and I am on the bubble against a stack that can cripple me without the all-in weapon to make him fold. My stats say I am much better then my opponents especially short handed so I don’t need a huge pot to place. I am 90% sure the other player has no business being in the pot with me. This play may be unethical but I have a hard time seeing it being -ev.

[ilya]

I think there are a few situations *in an SnG* when giving away your hand before the flop is the correct play.

For example:

it's 6-handed, and the blinds are at 100/200. You have 800 chips and pick up AA in the cutoff. UTG, another short stack, goes all-in for 500. MP, a big stack with 2500 chips, flat calls. You raise all-in. The button, small blind, and big blind all fold. The pot now has 2100 in it, and it's 300 more to the big stack. You will be a big stack if you win this hand whether MP calls or not, and the extra $300 won't add enough to your $EV to compensate for the higher risk of busting. Nor will it damage MP's position enough to cripple him.
So, if MP starts thinking instead of immediately calling, I think it's correct to announce that you have AA.
Yes, he should almost certainly call anyway...but you never can tell.

[poboy]

[ QUOTE ]
I am 90% sure the other player has no business being in the pot with me. This play may be unethical but I have a hard time seeing it being -ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are 90% sure you have the best hand, and you can't see how you would be losing EV by him folding. This seems pretty obvious to me.

[HajiShirazu]

In limit, if you hold a pair and your opponent has an overcard to your pair, you would always rather take his blind than have to win the pot in a showdown. So in this way, maybe giving your hand away would be useful, if it were ethical.