1st Hand Question (NO ITS NOT AA!!)

[SossMan]

And everyone doesn't go all in in front of me....


This is a hand from a buddy whom I am tutaring. It was from a large home game tourney (about 50 players). I don't know the buy in, but he claims that there are some serious, some beginners, and mostly middle level players. Pretty typical and certainly beatable.

This is hand 1:
Starting stacks are t10k.
Blinds start at t50-t100. no antes
I don't know how long the levels last, but prob. 20 min or so. Probably paying the final 7 or 8.

He gets 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif in the BB.
Two MP limpers, button mini-raises to t200.
SB folds, Hero in BB calls, limpers call.

4 to the flop for t850.

Flop:
2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif

checked around

Turn:
8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

checked around

River:
4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Hero's action?

[Xargque]

Play like you have the nuts against any reasonable competition.

I might worry about a flush if the table is full of total fish, maybe the flush draws checked. But after the flop was checked around IMHO any reasonably decent players would semi-bluff the turn with a flush draw.

-X

[durron597]

I'm trying to figure out why you would bet here. The possible weak hands (a queen, etc.) probably would have bet out earlier in the hand. Really the only hands that I could see still being around that beat you are made flushes. If you bet, no one who has missed the flop will call, but a flush will call or probably raise.

However, if you check, someone may decide to bet representing the flush. I would check-call up to a pot-sized bet.

[gergery]

I check. You’ll only get called by a flush, since the double checkaround means no one has anything on this board. I don’t see middling/bad players laying down a small flush to anything but an giant but (if even then.). I probly call T100 or so if back to me.

[Potowame]

This may be weak Tight, but I would check call a pot size bet here. If he opens the action and someone comes over the top huge, you have to lay down the best hand most of the time here.

[AceKQJT]

I Check-Call here too.

--Casey

[fnurt]

Check-call is sounding right. While it would be tragic to make no money with a set, if it gets checked around then no one was calling your bet anyway.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a hand from a buddy whom I am tutaring.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's helping you with spelling in return, then it's a good deal. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I would have put out some sort of bet on the turn, but anyway...

This is a cop out answer but this is completely opponent dependant. There are two options as I see it:

- Bet out about 600, slightly underbetting the pot. I like this option because a weak 8 might call here. It's also a small enough bet that you can get away from a large raise if someone woke up with the flush or straight behind you.

- Check, with the intention of check/raising. I kind of like this option against certain opponents, especially those who will semi-bluff the river with a mid/low pair. I think ideally you're hoping in this case that the PF raiser at least has an A, and decides if it's checked to him that he'll take a shot at the pot.

If he bets, you can check-raise and he's going to lose chips that he probably wouldn't have if you had bet out initially. Another benefit is you may get called by even an A-high, who might think you're "making a move" on the river, or simply wants to see what you have.

If you get re-raised by the bettor though, you can probably fold assuming your hand is no good. So while you risk a few more chips going for the check-raise, being early in the tournament I think there are some benefits from playing that aggressively first hand into the tournament.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-call is sounding right. While it would be tragic to make no money with a set, if it gets checked around then no one was calling your bet anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

With fishy players, I disagree that a bet out won't get callers. Again, knowing nothing about the opponents makes it tough, but I know I play against guys that will play passively to the river, yet still call a bet with a middle pair "just in case" they have the best hand.

With 10k in starting chips, I think it would be criminal to have this checked through when you have a set. I'm certainly willing to bet out something like 600 here, which I can lay down to a big raise, but may get a couple of loose calls.

[SossMan]

Glad to see the consensus check call. That's what I thought too.
Some mentioned calling up to a pot sized bet. That would indicate that they thought the set would be good only about 33% if someone bets the pot.

The pot is 850. I think I would call up to about 20-25% of my stack in that spot. That would mean that if someone bets 2500 into the 850 pot I would be getting odds of 1.35:1 (indicating that I thought my set would be good at least 43% of the time).

More importantly, how does where the bet comes from change your thoughts. There are some strange dynamics at work here. If the bet comes from EP and the people in between fold, then you are closing the action. If the bet comes from the LP preflop raiser, you still have some left to act.
However, I cannot see a situation where the LP had a big card diamond draw and didn't throw some sort of bet out there on the flop or turn. I also cannot see him checking a Q twice with 3 others still in the hand and not looking very interested.
I also cannot see a MP player checking all the way with a flush draw, making it, and still going for the ch-raise from an PF raiser who clearly didn't make much of a hand.

So, I guess I might consider a small check raise if it gets checked to the button and he puts out a bet of, say, t600. I might bump it to t1800 or so. I would fold to a (pretty unlikely) all in. This would also serve the purpose of getting on of the MP players to fold if they hold 35 or 57 for the st8 and were scared to bet by the flush.

If a MP player bets, I would call up to about 2500, I think.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
If he's helping you with spelling in return, then it's a good deal.



[/ QUOTE ]

damn, and i even have a spell checker on this PC

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
especially those who will semi-bluff the river

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure it's as impossible to "semi-bluff" the river as it is to check raise from the button.

[schwza]

apparently i'm the only one who thinks this, but i'd bet out on the river. there's nothing beginning home game players hate more than to be bluffed out of a pot that they might possibily have been ahead in. i'd bet 450 and expect to get called by an 8, 6, or 2. i'd call a reasonable raise.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
especially those who will semi-bluff the river

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure it's as impossible to "semi-bluff" the river as it is to check raise from the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not impossible. 6th street, or "the stream" is yet to come, right? /images/graemlins/blush.gif OK, you need a spell-checker, I need a terminology-checker.

What I meant by that is simply a hand that's not the nuts, or even close. Something like bottom pair, A-high, etc. A hand that the better probably thinks will be beat if he's called, but worth a bluff bet.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
apparently i'm the only one who thinks this, but i'd bet out on the river. there's nothing beginning home game players hate more than to be bluffed out of a pot that they might possibily have been ahead in. i'd bet 450 and expect to get called by an 8, 6, or 2. i'd call a reasonable raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty much what I said too. ESPECIALLY in a live game, at least with my friends, there's no way someone isn't calling a slightly smaller than pot sized bet if they think there's even an inkling of a chance you might be bluffing. Some of that is image dependant.

I still think a check/call is weak tight when the pot is so small compared to the stack size. There's just too good of a chance that you might get one or two weak hands to call, compared to having it checked through.

One advantage of the check/call I suppose is you'd save bets when there's a bet and a big raise behind you after you check. But the way the hand played out, I highly doubt that's happening.

Any results SossMan?

[SossMan]

What I meant by that is simply a hand that's not the nuts, or even close. Something like bottom pair, A-high, etc. A hand that the better probably thinks will be beat if he's called, but worth a bluff bet.


In general, if you're not sure if your bet is a bluff or a value bet, and you are out of position, it is usually time to check and see what develops.

[SossMan]

Any results SossMan?


they rabbit hunted for the "ocean" and it was the 4th 4 for quads. hehe

he bet out like t600 and they all folded. not exactly a ESPN hand (unless they doctered it up and showed Hellmuth folding his slowplayed set of 2's.)

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, if you're not sure if your bet is a bluff or a value bet, and you are out of position, it is usually time to check and see what develops.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't referring to hero in this case. I was referring to the PF raiser, who would be last to act and might throw out a bet.

[Sundevils21]

I would bet at least half the size of the pot.
A. just because a bad player won't bet, doesn't mean he won't call with the same hand.
B. if it's folded around to you, you might act like you were bluffing. Which would help your image.
C. if you get raised big, you can fold because you didn't bet very much.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
B. if it's folded around to you, you might act like you were bluffing. Which would help your image.


[/ QUOTE ]

hero is first to act.

[gergery]

I like this analysis. I also misread the original post and thought he had T1,000, not T10,000. I also like a smaller raise here as alternative, which might freeze a straight or small flush into just calling or might get middle pairs to pay off.

--Greg

[donny5k]

I actually like a small value bet, that level of competition will call, I could see 2 people calling with mid pairs. Once it's checked around twice a smallish bet on the river definitely doesn't scare the other people into thinking he has a set or flush. The min-raiser might even call with AK high, who knows.