Need Help On This Hand

[Hybrid_11]

Last Nights 10000 Guaranteed on Empire Poker
Down to 36 with top 30 getting paid. I have an average chip stack of 6100 and the villian in this hand has 11000
There is no reads on him because the tables were just shifted and have not played with him. The blinds are at 200/400

Im UTG and get dealt A /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif I limp in for 400.
UTG+1 (villain) raises to 900 and its folded around back to me. I call the extra 500 to see the flop.

The flop comes 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I check and teh villan bets out 2400 (the pot).
Whats my move?
What do u think villain has?

Thanks for the comments ahead of times.

[Cleveland Guy]

It depends on your motives. are you trying to merely get into the money? or could you care less about being in the back part of the money and trying to get to the final table to place real high.

If you are trying eek into the money - Fold. Even after posting your BB and SB you will still have about 10BB left.

If you are trying to double up and get to the final table - Push.

I think the bigger question I ahve is how you played the hand from the get go.

UTG Limp with AJ suited? I don't like this at all. I hate limping with anything UTG, your gonna be out of position, and if there is a big raise your just thwroing away the 400.

Then he comes back and puts in just over the min raise - you call. Another very passive move.

Flop Comes with TPTK for you. About as good a hand as you get. But you check to the pre-flop raiser? If you were checking for a check-raise then go all in. But I like a bet here. Maybe half the size of the pot, I think you can see where you are at.

What does the villian have? He could be playing big stack bubble poker, and have anything from AK, AQ, to KK, QQ, 77,88, 99, TT. Or even 53o.

I think you played the hand in a way where you could get no real information from him.

[Hybrid_11]

Im playing to get as far as i can. Im not looking to grind into like 28th. My check on the flop was gonna be an intended check/raise depending on the size of teh bet. I just limped because i read the boards and people are always saying aj and aq are not that strong of hands and being utg i got no other information so i figured a limp and then call would help me watchout for anything

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
Im playing to get as far as i can. Im not looking to grind into like 28th. My check on the flop was gonna be an intended check/raise depending on the size of teh bet. I just limped because i read the boards and people are always saying aj and aq are not that strong of hands and being utg i got no other information so i figured a limp and then call would help me watchout for anything

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think your pre-flop was a bit passive, but if you are going for the check- raise then go for it.

He could be playing big stack bully poker, knowing it's near the bubble and people will be afraid of going out.

If you run up against KK or QQ you still have the outs even if you were called.

[fnord_too]

Preflop - raise this or fold it.

Flop - Now you are in a tight spot. With the pre flop action I would normally like to check raise this flop, but that will most likely result in you getting all your chips in since utg+1 will likely call any raise you make. If you lead, you have to push I think, since a standard bet pretty much commits you, and utg + 1 will probably put you in if you leave yourself enough chips so that there is a decent chance you will fold if raised.

If my evil twin limp called before the flop gave the hand to me to finish, I probably check raise all in here. I would put the villain on a small pair or overcards. He appears to have a vulnerable hand with his weak raise pre flop and his pot size bet post flop (if he has a big hand why try to chase you off here, this board is about as benign as it gets for an overpair or a set.) You will probably get called by a worse hand and have to dodge between 2 and 6 outs to survive.

If your opponent has been playing the role of bully, and happens to have a big hand here (in which case his play is good, since it fits in with his play of other hands), then you are hosed. It happens, nothing you can do about it. If you ger sucked out on, same comment.

Why you have to raise this pre flop:
First, AJs is not a strong hand. There are very few flops you feel really good about, and you are out of position. If you raise and get raised pre flop, this is an easy laydown. If you limp and get raised, especially a samll raise, you end up putting more chips in the pot. Now you are playing a weak hand out of position for almost 15% of your stack. Most of the time the flop will completely miss you, then what do you do? Since you are out of position you either bluff lead, which could win you the pot or cost you another big chunk of your stack, or you check fold (probably the best option). So most of the time limping will cost you between 7 and 20% of your stack here.

Raising will pick up the blinds fairly often in most tournies (especially near the bubble). 600TC is almost a 10% increase to your stack, not bad. If you get raised, you end up dropping 17-21% of your stack depending on what your standard raise is at this point in the tourney. If you get called, then any lead you make after the flop will cary more weight, since you showed strenth pre flop.

Folding obviously cost you nothing, and is not a bad option, though I think raising here is better.

As it turns out, you caught a pretty good flop, and probably doubled through (or got busted by a suck out). You don't want to count on a good flop at this point in the tourney, that's just gambling. You want to put yourself in position to win an uncontested pot (unless you are up against a significantly smaller stack, at which point it is ok to gamble a little, but you it is still better to take pots uncontested.)

If you always raise or fold at this stage of a tourney, you will not often go wrong. I limp very infrequently after the first hour or so of a tourney, and then it is usually an overlimp or completing the sb in a protected pot.

[Hybrid_11]

Well fnord hit it pretty much dead on it seems. I intended on pulling off a check raise all in. He bet his 2400 and i raised it all in with my remaining stack which was about a 3000 chip raise. He used all his time and finally called flipped over ako and hit his 3 outer on the river.
I guess it would of been alot better to come out betting on the flop.
Do you feel that the villain might of been pot committed and had to call another 3000 so betting out on the flop might of gotten a lot better folding equity.

[SossMan]

I don't like the limp preflop. I don't think a fold is horrible here. I would probably raise to 3x, but I have maniacal tendancies.

After the limp, I think you have to call the mini-raise.

That's the perfect flop for you, and ch-raising all in to committ him w/ an underpair or AK is almost definitely the correct move. I'll take my chances that he doesn't have JJ-AA. He either has 2 or 3 outs, or you have 5 outs.
Check raise, or check call all in here.

[esbesb]

Just curious, pre-flop action aside, why do you guys advocate a checkraise post-flop rather than just leading out with a good-sized bet? I'd hate for villian to check behind and see a Q or a K on the turn. Seems like the pot is big enough, and the money close enough, to just go ahead and try to take it down without getting fancy.

[MLG]

It is very likely that the villain will bet here with a hand like AK, or 1010, and that that bet will pot commit him. If you bet out you get no more chips form those hands.

[woodguy]

With the Hero's passive play, the villian having position and most importantly having raised PF, he is almost certain to bet.

If Hero decides to play the hand, might as well get as much chips in there as possible.

Regards,
Woodguy

[esbesb]

I dunno if I'm convinced that a checkraise is right here rather than just leading out. The pot is already 2400, enough to increase hero's stack by about 40%. I'm not sure I want to (a) take the risk of a check behind (even if it's a low risk) and seeing a Q or a K on the turn, or (b) having villian call the check raise and get to the river.

Seems like the pot is big enough to take down here w/o getting fancy. Besides, he might call a lead-out bet with something like KJ.

What do others think?

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
Well fnord hit it pretty much dead on it seems. I intended on pulling off a check raise all in. He bet his 2400 and i raised it all in with my remaining stack which was about a 3000 chip raise. He used all his time and finally called flipped over ako and hit his 3 outer on the river.
I guess it would of been alot better to come out betting on the flop.
Do you feel that the villain might of been pot committed and had to call another 3000 so betting out on the flop might of gotten a lot better folding equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

WHY, for the love of heaven, do these results make you feel it would have been better to come out betting on the flop? Would you prefer an opponent to fold, or to call your all-in bet with only 3 outs? Or even worse, maybe he would have raised you all-in and you would have folded the best hand.

I agree that a check-raise was the correct play here, but for the life of me I can't understand how the results could possibly make you regret having check-raised.

[MLG]

Isn't it obvious fnurt...............he lost. You obviously don't understand anything. As Desdia says poker is a RESULTS oriented game. Obviously you want him to fold if his draw is going to get there on the river.


/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[edfilan]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it obvious fnurt...............he lost. You obviously don't understand anything. As Desdia says poker is a RESULTS oriented game. Obviously you want him to fold if his draw is going to get there on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

With opponent's 3 outs and 2 cards to come, I'll take that bet all day.

[MLG]

turn your sarcasm meter on.

[SossMan]

Obviously you want him to fold if his draw is going to get there on the river

how is this false?

[MLG]

its not, thats why im good at poker...my super secret glasses let me know what cards are coming.

[RacersEdge]

[ QUOTE ]
It is very likely that the villain will bet here with a hand like AK, or 1010, and that that bet will pot commit him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have asked this question in a seperate post a few day ago, but the answer seemed ambiguous to me so I'll try again: what is meant by "pot committed" here? THe standard definition I got was having to do with someone betting a significant amount of chips relative to his stack, so how does an 11K stack become pot committed here?

[edfilan]

[ QUOTE ]
what is meant by "pot committed" here? THe standard definition I got was having to do with someone betting a significant amount of chips relative to his stack, so how does an 11K stack become pot committed here?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's when you have favorable pot odds relative to the maximum amount you may have to risk to see a showdown. So it's not only you're stack but also your opponent's stack(s) that come into consideration.

[Potowame]

This pot Commits him here because if he bets out the pot of 2400 or 3000 and you check raise him all-in if he has any kinda hand he will usually call a all-in player for another 2500 or so after putting so much in the pot, for pure pot odds with two cards to come.

[Hybrid_11]

Thats the thought that went thru. I wonder if i just lead out betting the size of the pot and showing strenght. That way if he did call the turn came a blank so he would have to call another 2500 after the turn if he wanted to see the ak hit.
Although i might just be result oriented right now because i did get all my chips in wiht the best hand and at about a 9 to 1 favorite

[kickindickie]

its an ODDS oriented game...the worst thing you can do is punish yourself for getting losing when you get an opponent to put more of his chips in when you are a tremedous favorite. We all know it stings when you have tremendous odds and lose, but you're going to come out ahead if you do this consistently.