etiquette question

[jjnidguy]

Ive been to card rooms a ton, but the other day someone accused me of bad etiquette for something I never heard of before. I just wanted to get your guys second opinion.

So heres what happened...

I was not involved in the hand but these two guys were ramming and jamming a pot. One player had A-T and the other had Q-Q.

The board comes (A T T) - blank - Q.

the pot was getting pretty big by the showdown. Anyways the dealer says "showdown". The player with A T flips over and says "boat". Then the second player with Q Q says "damn it!" and flips over his Q Q. In absolutely no way at all did he muck his hand, he completely flipped over away from the muck, in no way should the hand be considered dead.

Anyways the dealer says "Ace Ten wins it" and pushes the pot to player 1 with A T. A few seconds go by and no one realizes that the dealer is absolutely wrong and that the Q Q is a better hand. (Queens over tens > tens over aces, i guess everyone just looked at the ace).

So before the dealer collects the cards and before she even completely pushes the pot to the wrong player I say "what? its queens over tens vs aces under tens"

and everyone is like "Oh DAMN!! youre right" and the dealer is real emberassed and says "thank god you said that, no one wouldve known"

anyways later the guy with A T whos been smoldering a little finally says something to me. Hes says something like "thats bad etiquette, most people would punch you in the face" and he makes the argument that I have nothing to do with the hand so its not my business and if the dealer makes a mistake it shouldnt be corrected by a player who has nothing to do with the hand.

anyways i argued with him saying its always OK to correct a dealer mistake, they are supposed to be right 100% time, if they are wrong its not OK to let it slip. Also cards speak, not what people think they have. If I have straight flush, flip over and say I have a flush it doesnt matter what I think and say, Its a straight flush.

anyways i just want to know whos right, me or him.

I think Im right, but if Im wrong, ill oblige whatever the etiquette is and not do that again, even if i disagree with it.

[plaster8]

I'm still a relative newbie, but I would have done the same thing you did. That guy has no right to be pissed at you. BTW, I'd feel like a jerk taking down a pot because of an error like this. Am I just too nice?

[RegBarclay]

Had the player with the QQ just shown his cards to you, the situation would be different. As he spread them on the table for everyone to see, the rule is "cards speak" and you were totally right to point out the dealer error.

Regards,
RegBarclay

[chesspain]

Once a player turns his cards face-up at a showdown, then the "cards speak," and anyone at the table has the right/responsibility to make sure that the real winning player is awarded the pot.

[MikeQ]

I would have done the same thing.

[pokaplaya]

At Foxwoods this is very common. I must admit there are some good dealers and bad ones; but the bad ones you always remember. I agree that "cards spreak" but I think the guy with QQ should have paid attention and said something. One last thing especially for new players, never let the dealer take your winning hand until you have the chips. Yesterday I won a pot and the dealer tried to muck my hand and send the pot to someone else (I didn't give the chance to muck and politely pointed that my boat beats two pair).

[eh923]

Everyone else's comments on cardsspeak is right. Here's something else to consider...

Don't trust the logic of someone who's pissed about losing a massive pot.

[itsmarty]

The only thing you did wrong was argue with the guy. Just ignore him.

Martin

[bigfishead]

I am a dealer. You did fine on all counts. Cards do speak.
Good job. Let tilt-meister go.

[emp1346]

in situations like this, i ask the person to flip perspectives and think about (in this case) if he were the player with QQ...

other than that, stupid people piss me off...

[Sponger15SB]

I've done this before....

some newbie flipped over like J3 and everyone just kinda ignored and the dealer pushed the pot to the guy with a straight until i realized what he had and yelled out "he's got a full house right before his cards were about to be mucked.

the guy with a straight gave me a death stare for the rest of the night every time we glanced at eachother.

[IhadPocketMes]

I had a situation yesterday I felt rather bad about as a person, but good about as a poker player, I had 33 and the flop was 889 and this kid bets his last 5 dollars on a 6-12 game and everyone else folds so i donated and he didnt want to turn his cards up, i turned the 33 up and came running 77 to make board of 88977, so two pair 9 high and kid mucks his hand just as everyone on the table says its a chopped pot. I felt bad but dragged a decent pot..

[Cazz]

That one is his fault. In this case, I don't think the table should point out that you are playing the board. One player to a hand, please.

BTW, he may have had you beat. He only had to have a card bigger than a 9.

[Thythe]

I was thinking this too Cazz. Why did everyone assume it was a split pot? More than likely the other player had a card higher than a 9 and would have taken it down. Too bad for him that he mucked, but it was his own fault.

[AllVegasPoker.com]

As other people have said, when the cards are face up, and not mucked, they speak for themselves.

The lesson to learn from this is that unlike in on-line poker, when you're playing in a live cardroom, dealers make mistakes. Mistakes happen a LOT more often than many people think. The dealers misread hands all the time -- even at the more up-scale cardrooms.

Take a good look at your cards before you muck 'em. Also, don't be afraid to challenge the dealer (especially if you're in a hand), if you're not sure why she's pushing the pot to your opponent. You can't just assume the dealer was right. That guy with pocket Queens might not be lucky enough to have a person speak-up next time.

[juanez]

I saw the same scenario play out once, but the player who "really won" the pot didn't say anything until a few hands later. Frankly I didn't notice it myself. The 2 players discussed it for a minute and when the real "loser" of the hand realized the dealer screwed up, he actually slid a stack of chips over to him equal to the pot size.

The dealer said nothing at all. Incredible.

[KowCiller]

I had a similar thing happen to me once. I tried to bluff the river with A high (busted flush) and got called down by a pair of 5s. the pot was fairly decent (12 BBs or so). Dealer didn't say anything, looks at our cards, mucks my opponent's 5s, and slides me the pot. My opponent never said anything until after i stacked my chips and the dealer was reshuffling the cards.

Opponent was like "Hey I had a pair of 5s, that should have been my pot" and the dealer looks at me and I shrugged and said "You pushed me chips so I started stacking..." Then we had to call the floor over, they asked me if I would have beaten a pair of 5s, and I said "Hey, all I know is I've get pushed a pot, I'll start stacking the chips. But, if you tell me the size of the pot, I'll pay him back if he would have won." I felt like I was being more than fair, if the dealer doesn't notice the error, and no one else at teh table notices (including the guy who would have won), I figure the pot is mine.

Everyone at the table helped replay the action, and I gave him his chips. He was a fish anyway and I had the chips at the end of the night regardless /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

KoW

[DimensionPresident]

Just happened to me.

I was short stacked and went all in with KJ, got a call from KQ. I was so certain I was going to lose, I didn't realize I had more outs than just a jack or another king with a turn of K 4 4 7. Ace hit the river and I started to get up thinking I was done when everyone at the table pointed out it was a split pot.

I think it is the right thing to do. I certainly would have just walked away and not thought twice about it because in my mind "king or a jack, king or a jack!" was repeating about a million times a minute, it just didn't occur to me an ace split the pot.

I usually never make mistakes like that but I was kinda drunk too. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[tek]

My thoughts are Machiavellian. It depends on which of the two is a better player. If you can help move the chips to the less talented player by speaking or not, then do so...

[CanKid]

There's nothing wrong with this, and I would've become a bit hostile when he said some people will punch me in the face for being the only competent person at the table.

[jjnidguy]

heh, yeah actually i did get a little defensive.
and when he told me what I did was bad ettiquette I responded "What? No way. its def the correct thing to do, and I have the responsibility to report a dealer mistake"

He said "no its none of your business, not your pot"

and I tried explaining to him about cards speak... hand was not mucked and face up on table ... etc.

then he just shook his head and rolled his eyes and said "ok kid whatever, you dont know what your talking about" (Im 23 and the guy was mid aged so he was being a little age condescending)

anyways I let it go cause theres no point in arguing with him

interestingly enough, a different dealer was in when we had our discussion about an hour after the fact.. and the dealer agreed with him.. which suprised me... she said if it were a higher limit I wouldve gotten my ass kicked.


well whatever

thanks for the feedback all

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
and the dealer agreed with him.. which suprised me... she said if it were a higher limit I wouldve gotten my ass kicked.

[/ QUOTE ]


which goes to show that many dealers don't know what the F their talking about.

obviously you did the right thing.....but it's tough to not look like a butt-in-ski here.....especially considering your youth and middle-age-steamer guy.
very dicey.
just try to be as polite and non-confrontation as possible when pointing out something like this and that's about all you can do.

[jafager]

[ QUOTE ]
The 2 players discussed it for a minute and when the real "loser" of the hand realized the dealer screwed up, he actually slid a stack of chips over to him equal to the pot size.

[/ QUOTE ]

One time I missed my draw, flipped up my cards and announced "playing the board". The other player looked at my cards, looked at the board, shook his head, and mucked his hand. I looked at the dealer, she shrugged and pushed me the pot.

We tried to explain, but I'm not sure he actually understood why I was pushing him half the pot. -EV dollars, +EV karma /images/graemlins/smile.gif

jafager

[bwana devil]

Jim McManus even mentions this in his book Positively Fifth St. Late in the WSOP, McManus went all in and thought he had lost the hand and was walking away from the table. Hellmuth, a railbird at that point in the tourney, called it a split pot.

Nothing wrong w/ that.

[MicroBob]

Didn't McManus go on to say that Hellmuth's little rail-birding was 'dishonoring' the game or something to that effect??

sorry, stupid joke. couldn't resist.

[bwana devil]

Nice one, Micro. I was trying to figure out what the heck you were talking about until I saw you reference it as a joke. I was slow on the get-go.