Why Is Soft Playing Wrong In 3 Sentences? [Archive]

05-18-2002, 02:42 PM

Hi Rick (Carl here from your CA Hometown),

Softplaying wrong because it takes:

"Poker Outa Poker"

1. It is cheating.

2. It takes the spirit of the hunt out of the game -- that is: it takes the fun out of the game.

3. It creates all kinds of wrongful or false feelings or interactions amongst the various players.

There are many forms of softplaying and some such tactics in split games isn't cheating. That is: initially playing fast to get one-on-one then go into a slow play mode if it becomes one-on-one and you don't have sweep(scoop) capabilities (just good tactics). Some slow players also flash critical cards to their friends in hilo games -- it's nice to know that your king hi flush is the nuts.

Some husband and wife combinations(but not all) ruin poker games -- maybe more so in hilo split.

Repeating myself:

For some reason, people generally don't slow play in home games. There is a different atmosphere in home games. I know it exists, I guess it would take a book to explain it. Also playing in home or private games where you don't know the opponents is setting yourself up to be cheated. I have even seen cheating in a home table stakes game where a workmate(aerospace engineer) was in cahoots with a local bartender. Advice: Don't play in home games unless you know all the players and know them to be honest. Some Valley home games rake as much as the casinos. Think of the taxes that they are saving.

Another form of cheating is backlining. It was illegal but a common practice in Old Gardena Card Clubs Card Clubs.

Another con game "before dealers" was passing money ($1 to $5)to fellow players when you won a pot. The con (who played few hands) would kiss up to three or four other players who played essentially every hand, and they would pass chips after every win. (Passing chips to the con, gave the marks a feeling of being important and one of the crowd.)The con would rat hole most of his chips to give the impression that he didn't have much. One day a con "Red" who I knew well back in the Bell Casinos(1979-1982) days had only about $50 in his stack. I commented that he was having a bad day, so he grabs(shows me) about $200 in then brown $20 chips out of his pants pocket. He says. "(with a big smile) if they are chocolate (brown) you eat them -- right."

05-18-2002, 02:56 PM

Soft playing may occur between regulars or friends, and it can appear to new/visiting players that they are being targeted or cheated when they are bet out of a hand and then the regulars check it down.

05-18-2002, 04:31 PM

You implied declarative sentences. I'll go with questions instead.

1) Would you be here (in this casino) if there was no betting?

2) Would you be here if everyone softplayed?

3) Since the whole poker business relies at its core on betting, then why should you be exempt?

Tommy

05-18-2002, 11:56 PM

Rick,

If someone doesn't comprehend the wrong in the idea of softplaying, they should be barred from playing poker in a casino.

I wouldn't respect softplaying from even a close friend- the only thing I respect in my play

is someone who gives as good as they get, and they're going to get my best.

perfidious

05-19-2002, 01:23 AM

Rick - I can see why it might not be winning poker, but it doesn't seem like cheating to me - and it doesn't seem like it hurts the game either. In fact, if anything, it seems like it makes the game more friendly.

You're way ahead in the game, flop a monster, some poor devil who has been reaching into his wallet all evening is in the hand against you and you don't feel like going for the throat - or you're in a pot with someone and everyone else is out of the pot. How does checking it down (softplaying) hurt anything or anyone, except maybe your wad?

Some individuals seem to think that beating the beejeebers out of some poor fish, taking all his money, and sending him to the poorhouse is what poker is all about. I don't see it that way.

Maybe I'm missing something. When I soft play someone, there is no cheating involved. It's pure benevolence.

Buzz

05-19-2002, 01:31 AM

I think it is tough to explain to this audience why soft-playing is wrong. Many in this audience have no concept of how poker is supposed to be played. Recently I played in a casino employees tournament and I rember one dealer in prticular (who was playing) that found it offensive that I was trying to win rather then trying to see how much beer I could drink.

Randy Refeld

05-19-2002, 09:41 AM

Rick's post started with, "Let's say you ..."

The question here wasn't whether or not softplaying is wrong. (I don't think it's wrong either.) It was, presuming it is wrong, how would you convince others, in the capacity of manager. Or that's how I interpreted it anyway. Rick?

Tommy

05-19-2002, 11:41 AM

Randy,

Let's say the audience is house players. Do you still think it would be that tough to explain why it is bad for the game?

Regards,

Rick

05-19-2002, 12:15 PM

Buzz,

You wrote: ”Rick - I can see why it might not be winning poker, but it doesn't seem like cheating to me - and it doesn't seem like it hurts the game either. In fact, if anything, it seems like it makes the game more friendly.”

I don’t think it is cheating in the sense I assume you are thinking of cheating. In most cases of soft play there is no malicious intent or plan to harm through an unfair act. But IMO it hurts the game a lot. For example, soft play might appear friendly to the beneficiary of a soft play, but not to the next player who gets bet hard. And if everybody soft plays then clearly there is no game.

”You're way ahead in the game, flop a monster, some poor devil who has been reaching into his wallet all evening is in the hand against you and you don't feel like going for the throat”

If this was the only time we saw soft play then there would be no real problem and little to discuss.

” - or you're in a pot with someone and everyone else is out of the pot. How does checking it down (softplaying) hurt anything or anyone, except maybe your wad?”

Soft play hurts the game by creating a non-level playing field and this upsets many players. For example player A might soft play his friend player B but not new player C. Now player C is facing a different level of competiion than player B. But if player A plays everybody hard then it is fairer to player C and the others.

”Some individuals seem to think that beating the beejeebers out of some poor fish, taking all his money, and sending him to the poorhouse is what poker is all about. I don't see it that way.”

I’ve let up on the gas pedal at times in this spot but clearly this isn’t what we are concerned with.

”Maybe I'm missing something. When I soft play someone, there is no cheating involved. It's pure benevolence.”

An occasional soft play in the spot you describe may be OK. But routine soft play just hurts the game.

How about this for three sentences: If you soft play some players but not other players or sometimes soft play but not always then the game may not seem fair to others. If you soft play everybody all the time then others tend to do so too and soon there is a game with no action. So to keep the game fun, fair, and full of action - don’t soft play.

Regards,

Rick

05-19-2002, 12:26 PM

Tommy,

I’ll try to be more precise. Is soft playing bad for the game? If you owned a casino and employed house players, would you want them to sometimes soft play, never soft play, or always soft play?

Tommy, I don’t doubt that if you soft play at times you do it in such a way that no one is offended or harmed. Your feel for the social context of the game is superior.

In a nutshell, the kind of soft playing I’m concerned about is A betting B hard but not betting C hard. Or A bets B out of the pot on the flop then checks with C down to the river when clearly A had a betting hand.

I’d love to hear more from you on this, “for you are so good with words” (sung to the tune of “Diamonds and Rust” by Joan Baez).

Regards,

Rick

05-19-2002, 12:31 PM

Rick - Thanks for explaining it to me. i can see your point.

Buzz

05-19-2002, 12:36 PM

Carl,

Cheating might be a strong word in the sense that “robbery” is a strong word when applied to goofing off or making a personal Xerox copy at work. But I like your other two sentences and will try to use them.

Regarding “backlining”, there is an Omaha game in town where some are pushing up to eight chips on a scoop of a kill pot. Google “evil seat 3” or “evil seat three” on RGP for more information.

Regards,

Rick

05-19-2002, 12:37 PM

05-19-2002, 12:45 PM

perfidious,

I play my friends hard in poker and other games and it doesn’t hurt our friendship. In fact it helps. For example, if I don’t give a full effort on the putting course, I’ve let my best friend down by taking the fun out of the competition. He wants to beat me when I’m trying my best.

IOW “Its an empty feeling when you score a basket when the other guy isn’t even trying to defend you”.

Regards,

Rick

05-19-2002, 01:29 PM

If I understand the idea here then the premise is that I am the owner/manager of a cardroom that allows its employees to play in its games or hires props to play in its games. I am worried that these employees/players or props who know whom each other are might start some practices that "I" feel might reflect badly on my room or cause me to lose business. Correct?

Assuming that I am correct since I don't really want to wait around for an answer then here is what I would want to make my people aware of:

Definition of terms:

softplay- to check into or not bet when checked to by another player/players in order to minimized yours or their loss for that hand. Mild form could be not betting if on the flop the only players in are known to each other. Severe form could include betting/raising agressively when unknown/unliked players are in the hand then checking down after they drop out.

Once I felt that everyone understood what I was talking about (sometimes a feat unto itself) I would present the 3 following thought questions:

1)Where does our money come from? (players=tokes/rake)

2)Would novice players percieve this practice as cheating or "ganging up" and not wish to ever play again and would experienced players understand the advantage held by the severe form (near collusion) and not wish to play in your room again?

(lost revenue and eventual closing)

3)Most importantly how would you feel to be the unknown/unliked person in the severe form of softplaying?

I always believe that the employee/players and props have a backassward way at looking at things, they think they have a right to play and play anyway they want in their own house while as a customer I think they should be willing to give up the seat to a incoming player since that is who pays the bills. However I can't count the times I have walked in and the best games are either with dealers in them (1 of the reasons it is a good game) or they are trying to get in them while I am on the board just waiting for a seat. In a large house as many as 10 seats can be filled by employees while customers wait.

Just my thoughts and only since you ask /images/smile.gif

1 Leg Lance

05-19-2002, 01:31 PM

Tommy - Thanks for your response.

I've been in games where I thought there was collusion. Pretty hard to prove when it happens, I think.

However, when people are playing as partners I don't think they soft play each other. Rather, they might be expected to play hard against each other, often raising when one of them has a good hand, especially with someone caught in the middle. Then they split the profits later.

Thus I don't think people soft play each other to cheat. Rather, softplaying is just a friendly gesture. (Beau geste). In addition, it would be purely stupid to hard play your spouse or someone you had hopes of climbing in the sack with.

From a casino management point of view, anything that drives people away from the game is bad. If house players regularly soft play each other, some patrons might misinterpret the gesture, get to feeling the deck is stacked against them and quit the game. Thus I can see how casino management would not want house players soft playing each other.

If I was in a game where everybody soft played each other except when I was in the hand, I might get to feeling paranoid and quit the game, especially if I was losing.

If there gets to be too much soft playing, at some point there is not enough action in the game and no profit to be made. And, again, one would feel like leaving the game.

Some people complain about all sorts of things. "This dealer never gives me a decent hand." "I can't win in this seat." "This deck is no good for me. I want a new set-up." Soft playing just gives these people more of an opportunity to gripe, and, again from management's point of view, possibly quit the game.

Thus I can see Rick's point, if I try to look at softplaying from a casino management point of view. (And maybe, Rick, you can find some arguments above that might help you).

Buzz

05-19-2002, 03:13 PM

Buzz

You are right. But that is mercy(Blessed are....)not really slowing playing. I think we have all done what you suggest every now and then. I know I have. I even did it for a pretty lady years ago when I was single. It's just an occasional good will jesture that actually improves the friendlyness in the game.

There are many shades and facets in the intricities of poker games, and a healthy balance has to be maintained. Rick's subject of slow playing is really about a more permanent situation usually caused by two or three players in the game. These players can usually afford to play and are not down on their luck.

On least three occasions(over the years), I have taken new type players aside and asked if they work hard for their money? They all said, "yes." I proceeded to tell them that they had no chance in here of getting their money back. In all three of these cases, I feel I helped them out by persquading to stay away from card clubs. It was obvious to me that these guys can from either Mexico or Central America countries, had got a low paying job here in the USA, and were out for a little relaxation time. They were not wearing Rolex watches or fine jewelry, and had no idea that the hourly casino rake & dealer toking was higher than their hourly wage.

05-19-2002, 03:48 PM

Post stated:

'Rick's post started with, "Let's say you ..."

The question here wasn't whether or not softplaying is wrong. (I don't think it's wrong either.) It was, presuming it is wrong, how would you convince others, in the capacity of manager. Or that's how I interpreted it anyway. Rick? "

Tommy '

--------

Comment by WilliamJames:

You cannot convince management that certain things are wrong such as "slow playing between certain players." The 'Bottom Line (profit)and cash flow' is all important to management. And even if you could lean management in that direction, there is not much management could do about it from a legal viewpoint. Probably the only thing that a person can do if to refuse to play in games infested with known habitual slow playing friends.

I have a friend (an aquaintance of 37 years) who is now a card casino shift manager in LA County CA. Before dealers & flop games he was a professional card player and was for things which maximized his winnings. But after working his way up from floorman to shift manager, he is pro management. He has no mercy on the high dollar rate dead drop which essentially makes it impossible for 95% of the players to win or break even in low or medium stake poker games. Poker is just entertainment, and if you wana play then you must pay. The only thing that matters is keeping the parking lot full and making hay when when the sun shines. shifting to legal things (opposite of slow playing)...

Many years ago there was a "super fast playing team" of $15-30 lobal players in a certain card club. Many players objected. Management was not initially legally successful from stopping this team of fast players. I was told by a player in the game that eventually the game got cleaned up, but it took a few years. (hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil)

05-19-2002, 04:18 PM

Thick Skin: You Gotta have it....

Events like this happen to all of us:

For example, maybe I slow play a certain player "say player 'A'"(for some reason -- who knows). I realize that I must have thick skin if later on in the game this same player "A," sandbags me and takes me for a big bet or so.... Of course I will remember the play, but I try not to let it affect me one way or the other. I just try to play my best game....

Things like this happen in things other than poker. There was a guy who was two years younger than me who went to my grade, high, and university schools; this guys always let me know how poor his family was.... In the college student union pool hall, I was beating the heck out of him in nine ball(nine ball was't allowed but). I let up on him, he got hot and start beating me. I realized it's never good to let up on complainers -- because when the worm turns, they show no mercy. This guy still owes me money.

05-19-2002, 04:48 PM

Years ago in a Gardena ElDoRada $5&10 draw game in which I was playing had two props and three friends (of the owner -- propably relatives) from the East Coast. The owner's friends were playing around "had no idea what they were doing" and essentially betting after the draw with losers. After one of the owner's friend bet, one prop hesitates and looks at the other prop and says, "should I call him or let you call?" It was kinda silly -- I had to laugh. These people fromthe East Coast were just messing around and didn't care how the props hehaved.

05-19-2002, 05:12 PM

One of the $80-$160 players at Bellagio is making "no bet on the river heads up" pacts with other players - players who are not his friends. What do you think about this?

I've got an open offer to check-it-down-to-the-showdown when anyone and myself is in a pot against Mason and Mason folds, since Mason does not consider this collusion.

05-19-2002, 05:22 PM

In 3 sentences,explain why having others do your homework is wrong.

05-19-2002, 06:39 PM

But isn't that kind of like saying I have a policy of using marked cards any time I'm playing against Abdul, since Abdul does not consider this murder?

05-19-2002, 09:31 PM

Rick,

We're narrowed down to the house wanting its props to play hard against each other. Well, I've never been the house in a legal casino, and I've only propped once, for 20 days, in a three-table casino, and I don't even have much experience as a customer in a big room with props, so I'm not equipped to address this. But ...

I think that softplaying by it's nature is as subtle and gray as slowrolling and string raising (though not nearly as naughty). And equally impossible to enforce equally, if at all. That's because slowplaying is not about how a player BETS, it is about his INTENT. I sure don't want to sit on that court, over and over. If I was running a big LA room, I'd do a deep review of the value of props to my business, looking not just at the bottom line, but at the resultant mood and spats and troubles as well, and probably do away with them. But then, like I said, I've never been on either side of that aisle.

Back to your problem, I don't think you can do anything about softplaying props. And because of that, I don't think you should try.

Tommy

05-19-2002, 10:55 PM

Hi Carl - It happens.

A few weeks ago I was playing 7-stud-high/low with declare in a friendly home game. I caught aces full of treys on the river. My opponent had what looked to me like possibly a high straight, or possibly the remains of a busted high straight draw. My exposed cards were such that it was difficult to determine which way I would be declaring. My opponent smiled at me, asked if I wanted to split the pot and I said, “Sure.”

A few hands later this same opponent and I were one-on-one again in a pot on the river. I actually had a fairly decent low hand, a 75432, and asked if he wanted to split the pot. This time my opponent evidently had made his hand because he said, “No, let’s declare.” Of course that’s the end of the splits with this particular opponent - forever. I'm not going to let someone play me for a sucker.

A decent player with good card reading skills has a huge advantage in a high/low declare game. I can afford to give up the edge in a weak game if someone wants to chop the pot with me.

Playing Omaha-8 in a casino, if I see two players checking it down when they are one-on-one, I assume they check it down with anyone who is willing to check it down with them. I actually much prefer not to play this way - but when in Rome.... So when I’m one-on-one with one of them early in the hand, I will also check it down - regardless of my hand. Of course, if that person bets, then the unspoken soft play arrangement is off (forever) with that person. As I wrote above, I prefer not to play that way, but on the positive side, the game can be nicer when you don't always go for the throat.

Another aspect: Sometimes there is someone in the game who is a very weak player. I imagine it happens much more often at the low limits than at the higher limits. True, those weak players will turn on you and take advantage of you if they get the chance, but it’s because they don’t know any better. They’re just thinking on some more primitive level, IMHO. I prefer not to play against them, because I don’t feel good when I take their money and I feel even worse when they take mine. But taking advantage of them would be like shooting sitting tame ducks in a pond. No sport to it. Thus I tend to soft play them. Some of them are just too stupid to realize what is occurring, but others recognize the benevolence and have a better time gambling because of it. And if they go away from the session as winners, I think that’s actually good for the casino.

But the above is totally different from house players soft playing other house players and seeming to gang up on casino customers.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

05-19-2002, 11:16 PM

Abdul,

You wrote: ”One of the $80-$160 players at Bellagio is making "no bet on the river heads up" pacts with other players - players who are not his friends. What do you think about this?”

Why not add “no bet on any round” heads up? Or why bet at all? Just deal out the cards and award the antes (which would work better than blinds for this game) to the best hand.

”I've got an open offer to check-it-down-to-the-showdown when anyone and myself is in a pot against Mason and Mason folds, since Mason does not consider this collusion.”

I’ll let Mason speak for Mason, but I would guess he would not like it much. To me it looks like another game has slid further down the slippery slope.

Regards,

Rick

05-19-2002, 11:21 PM

Gabe - LOL.

Look on this as a resource project. Rick still has to compose the report.

Using others as resource aids is very clever, and not considered having others do your work for you. In an academic setting, credit would be given to those who contributed to the report. Not at all unusual.

Rick still has to do his own work. He still has to select what he can use and compile the report (or whatever). Doing the additional research by asking for opinions on this forum adds to, rather than detracts from from the report, which will be his own when Rick is finished.

Buzz

05-19-2002, 11:28 PM

Rick,

I don't think it would be hard to explain, but I have seen some house players that like it better that way. A common line of thinking is that they will do whatever they want and nobody is going to tell them what to do.

Randy

05-19-2002, 11:29 PM

Tommy,

I agree that reducing softplaying is a hard nut to crack. That won’t stop me/us from trying. That’s why I’m looking for the most persuasive short argument that may convince people that it is bad for them and bad for the game.

I also realize that there are all kinds of gray areas. That’s why I posted this question on the forum. It’s the best place to discuss gray.

Oh yeah, IMO, well utilized props can help a card room immensely. But that debate is for another day.

Regards,

Rick

05-19-2002, 11:32 PM

05-20-2002, 12:09 AM

the post said "expert playing shouldn't be allowed",

and my answer was then...

"Would you be here in this casino if everybody was playing like an expert"

"Would you be here if everybody lost"

"Since the whole poker business relies on players losing, why should you be exempt".

By the way I'm being Devil's advocate here, I actually don't have any friends in the casino( and not many outside either for that matter). But I thought it was interesting to contrast things.

05-20-2002, 12:49 AM

Lance,

I’m far from an owner or manager but you are essentially correct in your stating of the premise. Anyway, thanks for the good description of both mild and severe forms of soft play. IMO mild forms tend to eventually lead to the more severe forms. Your three thoughts/questions regarding soft play are very good.

Regarding dealers playing, I agree that the best games are often full of dealers. And the big Los Angeles clubs won’t keep ten people waiting – there is almost always room to spread another game /images/biggrin.gif.

Regards,

Rick

05-20-2002, 02:11 AM

I think Mike Caro wrote an article similiar to this in one of the Poker rags I was reading. Perhaps you can use some of his thoughts?

05-20-2002, 02:49 AM

Mike,

Good point. Mike Caro has had good stuff to say on this and I'd love to have his articles in hand. One problem is that it is hard to search for his material on the web. But RGP might have something he has written I can search for using Google's advanced group search.

I also just added the Google Toolbar to MS IE 6.0. It is supposed to allow you to search the web site you have loaded (I'm hoping it will search the entire 2+2 archives at once) but I haven't got it working quite right yet.

Regards,

Rick

05-20-2002, 06:04 AM

The aim of playing poker is to be a good sport and bet your hands so that other players can have more fun trying to work out what you've got and whether they should call or not.

If you slow play your hands, other forms of entertainment like going to the pictures will be more inviting.

Soft playing is bad because if you instead bet you will lose more money to clever opponents calling behind you. This is especially true if you can't bluff as you will lose your money real quickly. Your opponents will be real disappointed not making money out of you.