$20+2 and higher SNGs

[WarDekar]

I've been an off and on poker player for a few years now and had definitely made money long term when I started seriously playing a couple months ago. I don't play a whole lot, when I started back I played 2 SNGs at $10+1 until I built up my BR. Then I moved to 2 SNGs at $20+2, and soon after 4 SNGs at $20+2 at one time. I usually only play 4 in a session, takes about an hour (this is at Party Poker). Tonight for the first time I moved up to $30+3s. My best guess is I'ved played roughly 200 tournaments up until now, and I'm up about $1,100 (has been more, but right now $1,100) which is an ROI of roughly 25%-35% given that some of those tourneys were $10+1.

Anyway my question is regarding limit and NL. Should I be playing NL instead of limit? I find limit very beatable, but at the same time I bust out of way too many tourneys from someone that catches a lucky draw when I should've put them out of the hand far earlier if I could have. At the same time, in NL I'm sure I'd bust out earlier if I suffered a bad beat. How much should I change my game if I move to NL? How much more should I expect to make? What about other SNGs, 7stud, 7stud hi-lo, Omaha, Omaha Hi-Lo? I played an O8 SNG today for $30+3 and won it, and it seemed the competition was pretty pathetic. I used to play O8 ring games exclusively and made decent money playing $1-2 up to $3-6 back when Poker.com was in service, but have since given it up because it's mind numbingly boring. That, of course, is solved by playing SNGs and playing several at a time.

My goal is to be able to make $30/hr or more playing 4 at a time (assume a set of 4 takes an hour). So for $20+2 I'd need an ROI of 35%, $30+3 would need 25%. Any opinions would be appreciated.

[WarDekar]

Bump....no one?

[Marcotte]

Well, I haven’t played as many as you, and I don’t multi-table, but I’ll give it a shot. I’ve got just over 50 logged $11 NLHE SNGs, and estimate that before I started tracking my results I played about 75-100 $6 and $11 SNGs, split about 70/30 in favor of NL. Some of those were 5 person SNGs at the Gaming Club, but most were 10 person at PokerRoom.

There are two main reasons I switched from Limit to NL, and one secondary reason. The biggest reason is that I think the NL games are easier. I think most people who play poker (in general) are more familiar with limit. I see a lot of people in NL SNGs playing with a Limit mind-set. They min-raise and min-reraise, or bet out ¼ or less of the pot on the flop. There are a lot of intricacies to NL SNG play that are lost on the majority of players. With a little reading (Sklansky and Brunson mostly) and this web site, I think I’ve given myself a big edge over the majority of the NL SNG players.

The second reason for the switch (and probably most important to you) is the time it takes. In my experience, Limit tourneys take much longer. You say can play one in an hour, which is about the same as my NL tourneys last (if I get down to the final two). But I play at PR, where we start with 1500 chips. How many do you start with? If its 800, I would guess that the NL SNGs probably last more like 40 min on average. If you can maintain your win rate, your hourly rate should go up.

The third reason I switched was that, at least at PR, the NL games fill up much much faster than the Limit. Sometimes you will have to wait 5-10 min for the Limit game to fill up. For the NL games, its usually a race to see who can sit down first. (I almost always play b/w 7 and 10pm Pacific on weekdays and during the days on weekends.)

As for strategy adjustments, check out Aleo Magus’ SNG FAQ. I think conventional wisdom (for low limit buyins - $6 to $22) says to play pretty tight early on and when the blinds start to get large (level 4+) start to go for steals when appropriate. Avoid close gambles early on, as there will be better places for you to get your money in the pot later on. When I get below 10 big blinds, I tend to go into push-fold mode. I don’t loosen my starting standards much (unless it is less than 5-6 handed), but if I’m going to play, I’m going to push. If you have 10BB, raise 3BB and get called by the BB, there are 6.5BB in the pot on the flop and you only have 7 left. If you are going to bet at that point you pretty much have to push, so you may as well push preflop and get maximum fold equity. (Note: At this point I’d be throwing away hands like JTs whereas earlier, with a larger stack I would limp. I wouldn’t push with JT unless I thought there was a very good chance I would steal outright).

Another thing I try to do is keep my raises consistent. For most of the early rounds, with 5+ players, I will often limp with suited connectors and medium-low pps (depending of course on position). If I have a better hand, I will always raise 3xBB, unless there are limpers (add one BB for each limper). At Level 1 and 2, I will raise more (to 100-150) because everyone and their brother calls 60 preflop on PokerRoom.

Like I said, I’m not the most experienced here, so read a lot of the other posts. With my 50-55 logged games I have a ROI and ITM of 41%-42%. It’s a small sample, but I think the games are definitely beatable by someone who is serious about poker. I’ve only been playing about 6 months, but this site and Sklansky’s books have pushed me way up the learning curve.

[golFUR]

My guess is that you are not going to do as well NL as limit for one reason only, the multitabling. Multitabling limit is a great deal easier than multi'ing NL.

In limit you can use 90% math and rarely need a read. When you do need a read its a simple application of the read: this guy sucks, call him down regardless; this guy is really good, if he checkraises I should probably fold.

In NL the math is still useful but the reads become much more important. You can go out or be crippled on any hand. Further, there is that you can raise any amount, and different amounts are going to achieve different results with different players. A lot of the thought you put into your game is how much to bet.

I do multi NL tables but rarely more than 2 and never for more than $5.50 or $11. If you want to multi NL SnGs above $22 I'd suggest playing a few dozen singles first. Get a good feel for the tempo and the 'usual suspects'. Accumulate some notes if you can on people you are likely to see over and over. Add in a second table and see if your game suffers at all. I don't doubt that someone can effectively multitable $55 NL SnGs, I just believe it'd be something of an achievement that would take quite a bit of groundwork before it was effective.

Good luck /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[wjmooner]

Multi-tabling in limit is much easier, although some posters are able to play 3-4 NL SnG's at a time.

A good player has a larger edge in a NL SnG than in a limit SnG because they can bet enough to make draws pay, push in and get worse cards to call, etc. Plus, with the limited time structure Limit SnG's frequently don't give you enough time to exploit edges.

[RcrdBoy]

[ QUOTE ]

The second reason for the switch (and probably most important to you) is the time it takes. In my experience, Limit tourneys take much longer. You say can play one in an hour, which is about the same as my NL tourneys last (if I get down to the final two). But I play at PR, where we start with 1500 chips. How many do you start with? If its 800, I would guess that the NL SNGs probably last more like 40 min on average. If you can maintain your win rate, your hourly rate should go up.


The third reason I switched was that, at least at PR, the NL games fill up much much faster than the Limit. Sometimes you will have to wait 5-10 min for the Limit game to fill up. For the NL games, its usually a race to see who can sit down first. (I almost always play b/w 7 and 10pm Pacific on weekdays and during the days on weekends.)


[/ QUOTE ]

Great reply.

These are the two main reasons why I switched to NL SnGs.

Also the strategy is different and has helped me become a better all around poker player.

Oh, and the competition isn't any better. At least on Party. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[WarDekar]

Since I'm mostly concerned with hourly win rate, would it be wise of me to switch to NL even if I can't play 4 at the same time? I don't doubt I could play 4 at once if I wanted to, but I wouldn't be able to pay attention to other players very well. As it is in limit I don't pay attention to players at all, and even do other things during the 4 I play at a time just to keep occupied. I would venture to say I could even play 6 limit tourneys at once if Party would let me.

Anyone have any thoughts about other forms? 7Stud, HiLo, Omaha, HiLo?

[WarDekar]

Anyone on other games?