a common situation with AK

[Cactus Cactus]

Basically this hand is about if you should throw another turn bet in as a bluff of if you should check.

The situation appeared in a Party 15-30 game. Hero is in the big blind with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif from early position. Hero raises and player x calls cold. Player x has called many bets cold, is not agressive, but neither passive. Everyone folds and the pot is heads up

Flop: (2 players) (3bb)
4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero bets and the player calls
Turn (2 players) (4bb)
4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Now in this hand I think about whether I should continue betting or not. What is going through my mind is that if the player had a 9 they would raise, having a 4 is unlikely. So I think that there is a good chance that I am ahead on the hand, unless the player had a pocket pair. The jack was a card that I did not want to see considering that J and Q are usually hands that people call with while A and K are hands that you usually raise/re re-raise with. Having a feeling that I might be behind I end up checking. Player x bet, only getting about 1:4 on this call I decided to fold.

Now what do you guys think about this play, should I have bet afterall I would be getting 1:3 on an bluff, but J really isn't a scare card so I decided that it wouldn't be as effective.

I know in this situation there are many options but I'd like to create a very thoughtful discussion here

[Billy Baroo]

I almost always bet in situations like this. I view it basically as a value bet, but with the added benefit that a player might throw away a better hand like 77.

IMO where the hand gets tricky is the river (assuming you get a call). I'll usually check in these situations, but there are plenty of times I'll bet as well. The times I'll bet are against a total magoo who I know will call with Ax or worse (I consider this a value bet), or if I read the player as having flopped a low pair and is calling to try to hit 2 pair or trips. Otherwise I check.

[Steve Giufre]

Your post wasnt stupid, it's definitely one of the tougher decisions in the game IMO. I'm assuming the player in question limped in from MP or LP and then you raised from the BB and got him HU? I was a bit confused with the action.

Anyhow I've done a lot of thinking lately about these turn situations where you are HU out of position without a pair after putting a raise preflop. (With a big ace). You really cant answer this question without player information. But as a default play I definitely bet, esspecially in the Party game. With that flop you should really like your hand. Most players who will limp in in this situation are weak, and I dont have any reason to believe he didnt just peel one off on that flop looking to spike something. The jack is ugly, but not ugly enough check agaist an unknown limper. The problem with checking is that a lot of them will not cleary define thier hand for you on the turn. In other words a lot of players in this game will just put you on a big ace and try to take it away from you with a bet when you check. This puts you in a tough spot deciding whether or not you want to pay off two more bets to see his hand. You also run the risk of him checking behind and catching up when you are ahead. Even in a head up smallish pot like this, giving him a free card when you are likely to be ahead isnt anything to get excited about.

So on the net, I bet almost every time because, I usually dont have enough player information to make a good decision about whether or not to call or fold on the turn when I check and he bets. But in a live game, where I have more player information, I'm probably a little more likely to check then I am on the net, since players seem a bit more unlikely to float the flop and then put in a pure bluff when checked to on the turn. But, in the Party 15 game, you see this all the time.

Also, if the player in question is on the predictable side, and the board starts to get a bit ugly, then checking is right because the information you gain by checking far outweighs the risk of giving him a free card when you are ahead. A lot of players will only bet with a pair in this spot and those are the ones you want to check to, esspecially if they usually need a little something to call the flop. But it depends on the texture of the board, and with only one card in the playing zone like this I would lead again agaist most players.

On the other extreme, there are really aggresive players who will put you on AK or AQ and almost always bet when checked to in this situation. You have a clear check in this spot. They will bluff the turn and river often enough to make it correct.

You should also take into consideration how often you have been check raising in these spots. If your oppenent has good reason to believe you might check raise him, he will be a lot more unlikely to bluff the the turn when you check. You do need to checkraise a fair amunt agaist more aggresive oppenents who like to float these flops and bluff the turn to slow them down and punish them. You'll also find they may start giving you free cards in other spots when you are trailing.

So, without player info, I bet this turn, and it's not a bluff as you said in your origanal post. It's because I have no good reason to assume I dont have the best hand, and some players may even fold a small pocket pair if you fire again. You can usually fold to a raise, but I'll somtimes call down if the board is ragged and the player is over aggresive. You find yourself in a lot less uncomfortable situations by putting the bet out there.

One last thing, there are a decent amount of players who will not call this flop without a pair. Agaist them of course check folding the turn is right, but not too many of these guys would open limp from middle or late position like your opponent did here. Keep in mind that the other time you will be in this spot is when you raise preflop and get a lone cold caller in late position. Usually the guys who will just cold call your raise are the same ones one who will peel a card off on the flop, which usually makes betting a better decision than checking on the turn. On the bright side, you are not HU out of position without a pair all that often after you have raised preflop. You just have to handle these spots the best you can. Sorry this post is all over the place, its late and I'm tired. I would be interested in discussing these situations with others because these spots are tricky and there isnt a lot of advice out there about how to deal with them.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
What is going through my mind is that if the player had a 9 they would raise, having a 4 is unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]

this shows that you are probably not very familiar with party 15-30 games. the players there are not always good thinking players, or thinking players, or logical players. one thing you can be pretty sure of is that in those 15-30 games, the more experienced players (not implying good, or thinking, or logical, or winning) tend to and like to be non-straight-forward ...

[lil']

In this spot I often bet and am prepared to fold to a raise. Sometimes I will call a raise if I feel I am being toyed with.

As others have said, there is still a very good chance you are ahead.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
I almost always bet in situations like this. I view it basically as a value bet, but with the added benefit that a player might throw away a better hand like 77.

IMO where the hand gets tricky is the river (assuming you get a call). I'll usually check in these situations, but there are plenty of times I'll bet as well. The times I'll bet are against a total magoo who I know will call with Ax or worse (I consider this a value bet), or if I read the player as having flopped a low pair and is calling to try to hit 2 pair or trips. Otherwise I check.

[/ QUOTE ]

this guy is good... now let me find out where he plays...

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
So, without player info, I bet this turn, and it's not a bluff as you said in your origanal post. It's because I have no good reason to assume I dont have the best hand, and some players may even fold a small pocket pair if you fire again.

[/ QUOTE ]

sometimes u will get called and river brings Q or T or blank.

also, if people are bad enough to cold-call with a smallish pair, they are not "good" enough to fold on the J9XX board on the turn.

finally, people with QJ, JT, KJ, KT, QT will either raise you or call you.

truth: AK OOP is hard when flop misses you. my goal is usually to win max when hit, lose min when miss.

Kenny