three-handed, from Chip leader to out in 3rd...need some help

[minwoo]

Would be great if someone can analyze this one for me...it was 3-handed and I was chip leader with half the chips in play. Am I playing my stack wrong? I thought aggression was the way to go with the blinds at this level. I did have the better hand both times but lost both times. Should I stop pushing with these hands? Any and all comments are appreciated.

Game #597284647 (Level VIII, Game #8) - 250/500 No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2004/09/22-22:40:04 (CST)
Table "Coral Sea" ($30 tournament) -- Seat 8 is the button
Seat 1: PLAYER 1 (2,115.00 in chips)
Seat 2: PLAYER 2 (2,700.00 in chips)
Seat 8: HERO (5,185.00 in chips)
PLAYER 1: Post Small Blind (250)
PLAYER 2 : Post Big Blind (500)
Dealing...
Dealt to HERO [ Kc ]
Dealt to HERO [ Jc ]
HERO : Raise (4,800)
PLAYER 1: Fold
PLAYER 2 : Call All-in (2,200)
*** FLOP *** : [ 4c Jh 3h ]
*** TURN *** : [ 4c Jh 3h ] [ Kh ]
*** RIVER *** : [ 4c Jh 3h Kh ] [ 8d ]
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 5,650 | Board: [ 4c Jh 3h Kh 8d ]
PLAYER 1 lost 250 (folded)
PLAYER 2 bet 2,700, collected 5,650, net +2,950 (showed hand) [ Qh 9h ] (a flush, king high)
HERO bet 4,800, collected 2,100, net -2,700 (showed hand) [ Kc Jc ] (two pair, kings and jacks)
-----------------------------------------------------
Game #597285138 (Level VIII, Game #9) - 250/500 No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2004/09/22-22:40:40 (CST)
Table "Coral Sea" ($30 tournament) -- Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: PLAYER 1 (1,865.00 in chips)
Seat 2: PLAYER 2 (5,650.00 in chips)
Seat 8: HERO (2,485.00 in chips)
PLAYER 2 : Post Small Blind (250)
HERO : Post Big Blind (500)
Dealing...
Dealt to HERO [ Td ]
Dealt to HERO [ Ad ]
PLAYER 1: Fold
PLAYER 2 : Call (250)
HERO : Raise (1,985)
PLAYER 2 : Call (1,985)
*** FLOP *** : [ Jh 4h 6d ]
*** TURN *** : [ Jh 4h 6d ] [ Qc ]
*** RIVER *** : [ Jh 4h 6d Qc ] [ 7c ]
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 4,970 | Board: [ Jh 4h 6d Qc 7c ]
PLAYER 1 didn't bet (folded)
PLAYER 2 bet 2,485, collected 4,970, net +2,485 (showed hand) [ Jd 9h ] (a pair of jacks)
HERO lost 2,485 (showed hand) [ Td Ad ] (high card ace)

[SmileyEH]

Go to your mom and cry.

-SmileyEH

[minwoo]

thanks, very helpful

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks, very helpful

[/ QUOTE ]

What he means is, you should know that you just lost two hands where you went all in to the flop with the best hand.

Has nothing to do with skill in the two hands shown. It happens.

(I hope this isn't a joke, and I look stupid for actually replying.)

[protoverus]

When your 'aggression' puts you all-in pre-flop you simply have to realize that there is a decent chance you will lose...

Try and be aggressive by seeing the flop and making good decisions post-flop. As soon as you are looking at an all-in play you have to decide, 'Do I want to take a chance (even if it is as small as 20% ie: 1 in 5) at losing my whole stack right now? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but you simply have to get used to the idea that any all-in play has risk. Make those same plays 1000 times and you'll likely be ahead...but you cannot worry about losing like that twice. I show about a 38% chance of losing the first hand and about 36% of losing the second...not unlikely, huh?



be well

[rybones]

[ QUOTE ]
Go to your mom and cry.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

So, I thought 2+2 was supposed to help people think about their game. how is this helpful? speaking of moms, didn't yours ever tell you that if you didn't have anything nice to say you shouldn't say anything at all!

As for the actual play, you may want to just bet 2 or 3xbb and then play the hand from there. I find this style of agression gets under people's skin more. They hate that they have to pay just to play a hand.

just my thoughts,

Ryan

[Gator]

In the first hand, I raise less pre-flop. Each table seems to have it's own personality on what steal bets will work - sometimes you can steal with a minimum reraise (1,000 or 1,200) - it's basically asking player - do you want to play for all of your chips here.
Of course, against good aggressive players the larger raise is a better play. But that was one option.
Had you done that, you would have gone all in on the flop and he would have probably called with that draw - so results might have been the same.
It's just that you can keep using the minimum reraise move if table will let it work.

[SmileyEH]

I don't care who you are, but this post has no strategic worth. The decisions were easy and the results unavoidable. They are nearly equavalent with going all in with KK v. AK twice in a row.

Bad beat police.

-SmileyEH

[golFUR]

I think some people read so superficially it makes it 100% certain all they can respond with is the superficial.

Your questions were:

[ QUOTE ]
Am I playing my stack wrong? I thought aggression was the way to go with the blinds at this level. I did have the better hand both times but lost both times. Should I stop pushing with these hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

and they chose to make snarky comments about the hand histories... whatever. I'll try to comment on the actual text as well as the illustrations.

Yeah, as a chip leader you want to bully a little. You've got more chips which means more comfort, if you can make their experience less comfortable they are more likely to make mistakes. There is a caveat here though, you are in the money now. Put yourself in your opponent's shoes for these hands and try to figure out what actions from you (the big stack) would make them most uncomfortable or would be most advantagous for you (the big stack).

In the first hand you raise enough to set either one of them all in. With your stack you can 'afford' the loss if you can outplay them later. As big blind I am staring at a Q9s, not my ideal but neither unplayable. If I suspect that this is going to be a constant thing I have to make a stand at some point. I can yell out 'gambooool' and call you with just about anything, either looking to double up, luckily or not, or looking to go out, collect my winnings, and find another SnG where I can be big stack and not have to make those decisions. So in this case your pressure got pretty much the only thing it could get, a gambling call.

If instead you had raised to 1000 or 1500 or so you are still saying the same thing, "I'm willing to play for all your money" but you give them the option to see the flop and still live, and you give yourself the same option. The other thing to consider here, and I do this quite often on the bubble, is, if I lose this hand do I want to double my opponent? If I can get away from a flop for less than doubling them, even if it is only a few hundred less, that is a great thing.

The second hand you posted is easier of course. You had the best hand, you went in with it, you got called by less and he won it anyways. There isn't much you can do but shrug and move on to the next one.

So to summarize a bit and answer your questions again, yes, as big stack you want to push. Just be ready, and expect, that people are going to call you with less than exceptional hands, they are going to be willing to gamble. If you push them all they way, they will gamble for all of it. Try using your stack slightly differently. As big stack you can afford to see a lot more flops for no raise. Try calling on the button with more hands where you'll have position on them. If they miss completely you can often take it down for hardly anything. Within a few orbits you are bound to hit one at the same time, and harder. You'll clean em out then. Of course still raise your premium pockets, but use your stack just to see more. It is still pressure when they know for a fact they will never have a blind folded to them.

[Gator]

I love your line "it is still pressure when they know they will never have a blind just folded to them"

Thank you for adding a valuable voice in my head.

[J.A.Sucker]

Both hands were played fine. Realize that either of these hands are barely coinflips over your opponents. You DON'T want to be called in either situation, really. However, you were, and you ran it out and lost. It happens. The blinds are so big that you don't really have any choice. Be glad that you had the best of it in either of your coinflipish situations, but also realize that you should be losing many of these where you DON'T have the best of it. Pushing off your stack can hardly ever be really wrong, if at all, but calling it off is frequently a mistake. Some food for thought, but I'm Just Another Sucker.