Kitchen table

I've read TOP, TH, THFAP, LLH(lee Jones), Inside teh poker mind, and I have no trobule takling on any low limit game at my local cardroom(my bankroll isn't big enough to move up to 6-12 or greater as I'm 18). My question is, how the hell do I beat the kitchen table games w/my friends. I can't ante steal, I can't raise them out, even for reidiculously high raises (in ratio of the game, we play for quarters), they play gutshots AND HIT THEM ALL THE TIME! and I can't play too tightly or I will end up getting the worst of it because of the antes, as a result there are huge $ fluctuations as a result. how do I beat this game?


Joe

What games do you play with your friends?

Hold'em, seven stud, 5 stud, 7 stud (black bottom) high spade in hole splits, omaha, 5 draw, pineapple, and seven draw. We play no limit.

>> and I can't play too tightly or I will end up >> getting the worst of it because of the antes


Remember that there isn't just "loose" play and "tight" play. It sounds as if your friends play loosely, so you would in response want to play tight. But also, if the antes are relatively large, you want to loosen up. Adjust your starting requirements accordingly, to find the perfect balance, and then outplay them TOP style.


-Ryan!

easier said than done!!!

if the guys you play with are your friends, i am sure you don't really want to come out a big winner all the time - do that when you play with "strangers"


of course, you don't want to lose too much either, obviously


i find that if you join in the fun/style of the game but if you are "better" than them when the crunch hands appear you will usually win a few bucks but remain friends - which latter point is more important than any game of poker imo


if you sit there waiting for the AA or KK, as perhaps you "should", you will soon become the guy they don't invite to the game


have some fun with your friends - sounds like they are there to have a good time and do a bit of gambooling


nice game - enjoy - good luck

Both stud games and Omaha *really suck* with a no-limit betting structure. If you have any moral suasion with the other players in this game, I might suggest switching over to pot-limit instead of no-limit.


The game you call "black bottom" I've always called "Chicago". The secret of that game is simple: If you don't start with the ace of spades as one of your downcards (or if the ace is up on third street and you don't have the Ks down), fold -- otherwise you are playing for half a pot, while if you have the boss spade down, you've got a lock on half and are freerolling for the other half.


The real key to success in these games, assuming that they stay no-limit, is to stick to made hands yourself and punish the draws. Sometimes the gutshots are going to get there, true, but *make them pay to get there.* Because they won't, always, and on average the hand that starts out the best is going to finish the best.


Watch the other players. Is anyone winning consistently, or does the money slosh around between you? If it's the latter, maybe you don't have to worry about beating the game -- just play smart and on average you'll be even, and be enjoying your night with the boys.


If there are consistent winners, though, you should watch them. How do they play? How do they play the other players? You can learn something.


Home games, especially home games with the boys, are a different animal from public cardroom games. A greater value is placed on having a good time and a lesser one on winning the money. Do what you need to do to have a good time while not losing money you aren't happy to lose.


And if you do start to beat the game, be careful, because if you do so in a way that hurts the good time people are having, it will kill the game.


I know this is kinda long, and not terribly much help, but it's a start. Good luck, play smart, and definitely have fun.

A home poker game should always be played with a fixed-limit betting structure and with a limit of

3 or 4 raises per round. Pot and no-limit betting structures are only for the pro's. Moreover, games with these latter betting tend to play more slowly than fixed-limit games. Some of the games you play such as seven card stud and chicago are simply unsuitable for the latter two betting structures. If there happens to a player with a healthy bankroll, he will just usually try buy most pots and become a real nuisance. A fixed-limit betting stucture also makes colusion most unlikely. Don't think it can happen among friends? Well, it does.

Do two players seem to win more and consisitenly per session than the other players? With pot and no-limit betting structures, the temptation for colusion can get best of otherwise honest people.


In my opinion 7 card stud Hi-Lo with closed or contract declaration is one of the best home games that has lots of action and greatly favors the skilled player. It is also the game at which you can win at more often and with greater profit.

I agree -- high-low stud with a declare and no qualifier ROCKS as a home game. (But if you really are concerned about collusion, stay away from declare and stick to cards-speak, which also rocks, but plays differently.)

Joe, I think you've got some good advice from the posts above. I recommend that you play in, and try to beat, this game. You can learn a lot about poker from these games that you just can't learn elsewhere. Playing hi-lo with a declare will teach you more about reading hands and people faster than any other game.


NL isn't as bad as a lot of people imagine for these games - as long as nobody has a big stack and is bullying. When that happens, you just have to sit out the hands with too many betting rounds. When it's playing more like spread limit, you can stick out your come hands longer.


Go to a used book store and look for old poker books. Livingston and Morehead, just to mention a couple, have a lot of interesting things to say about these games.

In a low-limit games with contract declaration, I never ever had a problem with colusion. The most exciting part of the game is the showdown when your get there with a busted hand (i.e. your hand with four cards to a 7 low didn't come in on 7th street), make a gut guess to go the opposite way you think the remaining players are going to declare as suggested by their upcards, open your hand and see you did indeed make that lucky guess, and scoop up half of a really big pot.

Phatty,


What are these Livingston and Morehead books? Just curious.


Dogs

88,


The A.D. Livingston book was published in 1971. It was reprinted several times under different titles, one of which was Poker Strategy. It has interesting discussions of various "junk" games. Where else can you find a strategy for playing Anaconda? It's section on hold 'em, which he calls hold me, is terrible, but reflects the thinking of the times.


Alfred Morehead's Complete Guide to Winning Poker covers basic stud and draw games. I think it's section on 7CS hi-lo with a declare, or cards speak any-any, is pretty good.


Anothe good junk game book is Irv Roddy's Friday Night Poker. It has one of the best discussions of the psychology of poker players ever written.


If you like weird games and/or poker books, they are all worth a gander, IMO.


Fatty

Hey, you're playing no-limit. Draw outs should not be a problem for you in this game. If they are, you're not betting enough. If there's 5 bucks in the pot, bet 10. Since they want to call, put yourself in a position to also want them to call (by betting so much that they aren't getting the right odds to call). Remember that in Omaha a draw can be a favorite over your set on the flop. If you win with your trips, YOU are the one who's drawn out on the draw (occasionally). If high spade gets half the pot, only play if you have the ace of spades, and then get as much money into the pot as you can. Lastly, you will likely have to play looser and more agressively than you would in a card room because there aren't as many people at the table.


-MD