Did I miss something here? Methinks so.

[Talex]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

MP3 is loose and passive, but overplays big pairs. Button is an unknown and the BB is LP-P.

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, CO folds, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, MP3 calls, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP3 calls.

I had no reason to believe anyone would bet preflop, so I did. I'm ahead, I want bets, the raise from the button surprised me. I smoothcall intending to checkraise the turn as I'm not too concerned of shutting players out here. Should I have been?

Turn: (9 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

Well crap, scared of the queen?

River: (9 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, MP3 folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls.

So I figured the raise is a turned two pair with the king, how do I look?

Final Pot: 17 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 17 BB, between Button and Hero.</font>

[cold_cash]

Looks like JT from the button.

3-bet the flop, lead the turn.

I want to say just call the river raise.

[Talex]

Nobody else, eh?

[MAxx]

your play looks fine to me. if villain really had j10s like coldcash suggested..... i would be hesitant to give him anymore free cards.

sometimes i would 3-bet flop... depending on pot size and the tables' propensity to call 2 more cold, etc.

[sthief09]

well the free card seems to be a dead giveaway that he has a draw, but sometimes people do it because they're weak. so either he raised JT as a free card play or he has K9 and the turn scared him. after he raises you, I'd have a hard time not 3-betting but it really does look like JT.

[Talex]

Is raising the flop with weak overs and a backdoor straight a common play? Is it a good one? I'll admit I was pretty befuddled by the whole play on this one, though maybe I shouldn't have been at all.

-Tim

[Rico Suave]

Six:

I do not like going for the turn c/r. You said that you were not concerned about facing the field with 2 bb on the turn...why not? They are very likely to fold, and you really do not want that. You should play this one in a manner that maximizes the amount of chips that go in the pot. I would say that a flop 3-bet and turn lead is reasonable, or a stop and go.

Also, I think an overcard to the flop may scare the button into checking behind.

--Rico

[Talex]

Hey Rico,

Yeah, I think the turn checkraise attempt was really misguided. I think if it succeeds it only gets rid of hands I wanted around and if it fails, like it did, I manage to make the absolute least. I think a 3bet flop and leading the turn is the better play. Assuming I think the board is benign

This brings up a second question though, does this constitute a "draw heavy" board that I want to shut people out of? At the time I wasn't worried about draws too much, which is why the line I chose was bad. Now, if my evaluation of the board not being too dangerous was wrong, my line may not be quite as bad.

-Tim

[Rico Suave]

Tim:

[ QUOTE ]
This brings up a second question though, does this constitute a "draw heavy" board that I want to shut people out of?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not consider your board as draw heavy. Now let's say the you held 77 and the flop came down 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gift /images/graemlins/spade.gif ....now that is a draw heavy board. So, now, if the action went down the same way on the flop as in your hand, would your play of a c/r be more reasonable? I do not think so.

I hope the more experienced posters will correct me if I am wrong... but, like your actual hand, I think the goal should still be to shovel as many chips as possible with the likely best hand and best draw. I do not think that shutting out opponents will yield you the best profit in this situation. OESD are coming, flushdraws are coming. The only hand you really can get to fold that you might want to is a gut shot, but in reality, you are still making money from them with every bet they put in the pot. Top pair, second pair, et....you would rather them hang around to pay you off. The real difference in playing a set on a draw heavy board is that you should tend to play it fast, because you are much more likely to get callers and people willing to play back at you.

Again, I may be wrong, but even with draw heavy boards, I think you are much better trying to get the money in the pot rather than worry about trying to protect your set. Anyone concur?

--Rico

[Talex]

Huh, I hadn't look back at the potsize before posting that last bit, but you're right that even if my nefarious check-raise plot works perfectly they're still getting 5.5:1 on their turn calls. So OESDs and Flush draws probably sit tight. This then makes it a situation where you can't protect, so you may as well pump?

I'm still interested in protecting what's becoming a big pot though right, even against one card straight draws? Moreover getting a straight or flush draw to fold could be a coup, even with my strong redraw. I have some trouble evaluating these situations to determine whether I should do everything I can to protect myself, or go ahead and try to build the pot. Where do you draw that line?

Certainly part of the evaluation has to be how likely the checkraise is to succeed, since having it checked through is obviously a tragedy. But I guess assuming you have good reason to believe it will work, is it worthwhile to shutout the weak draws even if the big draws have the odds to call and the pot is large?

-Tim

[Rico Suave]

Tim:

[ QUOTE ]
is it worthwhile to shutout the weak draws even if the big draws have the odds to call and the pot is large?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would rather trap weak draws-- like top pair, second pair, and overpairs-- against your set rather than exclude them. They may pay off incremental bets thinking they are drawing live, when in fact they are drawing slim to dead. Now a gutshot draw is the only hand that might be considered a *weak* draw, but it is drawing live. However, are the bets you miss by trying to shut everyone out made up for the time that the gutshot draw is out there, gets there, and you do not hit your redraw? I dunno. I think I prefer to ram and jam and take my chances. Maybe someone else thinks otherwise.

--Rico

[Talex]

I think if I had a weaker hand then shutting folks out would be correct. In the end I think you're right, when you've got such a strong redraw even against the few hands that are drawing live you're losing more shutting down the action than you do when you collect bets but occaissionally lose.

In the end Villain did indeed have 10J and MHING.

-Tim

[Lost Wages]

It is when you can get someone with a set to just flat call your raise and then let you see the river card for free /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Lost Wages

[Talex]

I deserve this.

-Tim

[sthief09]

In your defense, I check-raise a LOT on the turn and this very rarely happens to me. I'd probably play the hand the same. On my good days I look at the board and realize he almost definitely has JT and outplayed me, and on my normal days I 3-bet because dammit I have a set and he doesn't