setting someone up for tilt

How can you set someone up for tilt, obviously it's not what you say to them, because if you correct them on their play......they may actually play correctly.....and start to fold more hands when they take down a big pot....and you have ridiculed them........there is a good player that I play with and sometimes he has a tendency to go on tilt.....how can I fuel the fire?? What can i do here to keep this guy on tilt..??

Roy Cooke has often written about trying to do this very thing when the circumstances are right. One of the ways that he does this is too make a call/raise when the immediate odds don't indicate that the play is correct but that the *implied odds* allow him to make up for the shortfall.


I'm sure that others also have valid advice.


Lar

Could you give an example from Cooke or yourself about this...? Thanks.

Has several examples where he speaks of this very thing, unfortunately, I'm at work so I don't have the book onhand. I'll try and post something later this weekend on it.


Lar

Good players don't have to resort to such tactics. Why not learn to outplay the good player? That is the best way to put him on tilt, and it involves ethical play. Hustling type tactics will not get the money in the long run.


Jeff

I'd appreciate that... I have never read his old book or got his new one yet... is it good? what kinda of topics does it show a good perspective on? I was going to order as we are conversing from Conjelco and Sklansky's Tournament book.

Are you a westcoast player or east coast player.. meaning what area do you play in? I also agree with your post.

I really like both of his books. I like to think that I play a pretty good game but when I read some of his stuff, I realize that there is still so much to learn. I suspect that it is a continuous journey.


Lar

I agree. I constantly read and review concepts all the time. When I play and I see something out of the ordinary and I know the guy is a good player I'll ask him why he did that... because I'm friendly and get along with everyone people pretty much tell me quite a bit about their poker game, though I will never share it with another person. I'm not one to set guys on tilt, I usually try to calm them down, if there not bad fella's. I play a pretty fast game, meaning very aggressive and sometimes pretty loose, I know they sat tight-aggressive play gets the money, but in many of the games I play, it sometime turns out like low-limit.

Hey Downtime,

I play on the East Coast at the Taj Mahal in AC (though not as often as I like while in college in DC, usually every other Saturday or so), and also online a good deal.


Jeff

"Hustling type tactics will not get the money in the long run."


I'm not sure what exactly you mean here, but if it's simply masking your true demeanor, I have to disagree. Everybody (well most everybody) knows to patronise poor players with encouragement and affirmation when they make bad plays yet take a pot. And nobody really considers this to be a "hustling tactic".


The idea of getting a player to go on tilt isn't really any different. Whether through your play, or your talk at the table, if you can get a player to begin to play poorly, it's the same as encouraging a fish to keep on chasing.


I don't see why such a tactic is ok when applied to an otherwise poor player, but a "hustling tactic" when applied to an otherwise strong player.


Interestin' topic : )

"I'm not sure what exactly you mean here, but if it's simply masking your true demeanor, I have to disagree. Everybody (well most everybody) knows to patronise poor players with encouragement and affirmation when they make bad plays yet take a pot. And nobody really considers this to be a 'hustling tactic'."


This is not a hustling tactic. Being friendly to recreational players is simply good business. Complimenting someone on a nice hand (even though you know they misplayed it) is fine. After all, you are not there to teach them how to play, and you are being respectful if you don't say it in a condescending tone. But purposely being a jerk or trying to get under someone's skin makes is not only unethical, it is also stupid. Bad players come for the cameraderie of the card table, not to be in a hostile environment where they are going to be demeaned if they make a bad play. If they see unpleasantness, they may take their gambling dollars elsewhere. Also, it will frequently tighten up the game. You want a table where your opponents are laughing and having fun. Win with skills, not by trying to make someone emotionally unstable. It is unprofessional, and most who do it have leaks in their ring games. Other hustling tactics: Hiding cards so as to provoke others into acting out of turn, trying to see your opponent's hole cards by bobbing your head, holding someone to a minor rule infraction when it was obviously a minor infraction, acting out of turn by betting, then when its checked to you, u check, etc.


Jeff

Poker is about encouraging your opponents to make mistakes.


If you have a bad player, playing badly, you should be making him comfortable so he sees no reason to change.


If you have a good player, playing well, you should be making him UNcomfortable so he starts to change against his conscious decision.


Making others play worse will always get the money in the long run. Sitting there playing against good players will not.


There's a lot of ways to make a player go on/stay on tilt, but they are all entirely player dependent. So read your man and act accordingly. Just don't get your ass kicked.

"If you have a good player, playing well, you should be making him UNcomfortable so he starts to change against his conscious decision"


-this is what I'm taking about, what type of things can you say to make him get all messed up, for instance, yesterday when he was involved in a hand a bad beat occurred to him, so I started laughing.....that started him up a little on tilt....


I WANT A FULL FLEDGE TILT-A-WHIRL

The following came from Roy Cooke's Real Poker II, The Play of Hands.


Pg. 55

The other concept is to make emotionally unbalanced players get off their game. Often this can be as easy as putting a beat on them. Poker is a game of edge; the worse your opponents play relative to the level of your game, the more money you will make. Setting up your opponents to make mistakes either through deception or psychology is an area that even many seasoned professionals fail to relate to.


Pg. 169->170

I hated my spot. But several factors influenced me to call. One, I had within the last lap raised the betting player with a draw and connected. He was still stewing at me. If I made a hand that caught him from behind, he was likely to go off big time with an inferior one. Plus if I made another one, well.... to put it kindly, even though this guy was a fair player, he was also tilt-susceptible. Sort of like my Florida buddy in that regard. If I sucked out on him again, it would be a good thing for this poker game for the rest of the night. Also I was getting 10-1 currently. A positive price, assuming it didn't get raised, although I knew overall the call was a very marginal.


>


Great book.


Lar

Pool players do this a lot, but call it "sharking" the opponent. I have seen some players use this very well but it can really anger the opponent. Everyone has a sore nerve to touch. Use at own risk. Iimagine such a tactic might be extremely profitable in NL/PL big bet games.

giving him simple and obvious advice or lightly questioning his play when he loses a hand is a very good way to tilt a player who thinks he knows how to play well


go to the general or small stakes forums and have some dry practise by criticising one of dynasty's "moves" - you'll see what i mean - and you'll have fun, too

"This is not a hustling tactic. Being friendly to recreational players is simply good business."


I almost want to pull this quote out and make no comment whatsoever, but I suspect that you'd miss my point.


That point is this: If you are acting friendly towards recreational players for the sake of business, rather than because you happen to be feeling friendly towards them, YOU ARE HUSTLING THEM.


Poker is inherently predatory and exploitive. Got a problem with that? Well, then, maybe you shouldn't be playing.

"sharking" or "hustling" in pool is different from taking advantage of a player psychologically through the way you play...


I would say that in pool or poker, most players would agree that trying to tilt a player by adopting a certain betting strategy is not only effective but also perfectly ethical.


On the other hand, I bet most of these same players would frown on the idea of setting someone off by making comments about his recently deceased father schtupping little children or whatever.

"Poker is inherently predatory and exploitive. Got a problem with that? Well, then, maybe you shouldn't be playing."


I have no problem with the nature of the game, and do see what you're trying to say here. But, I don't believe that being nice to recreational players is conning them. People that play poker understand that the goal is to win other people's money. By being respectful at the table and well liked, I feel that I am more likely to achieve this. I do not think being an asshole to tilt an opponent is ethical play or intelligent. Don't you think that you get more action by being respectful? I think it tarnishes the image of the game, and I do not participate in it. I try to be a sportsman at the table, and play my best game. Do I always succeed? No. But I would like to know, as a pro (which I assume you are by some of your past posts), don't you feel it is more profitable to be liked than hated?


Jeff

" I do not think being an asshole to tilt an opponent is ethical play or intelligent"


you keep invoking the name of ethics, yet you don't explain the basis for your ethical system. i just don't see where your claim makes sense. why can't i do something (not necessarily acting like an asshole, mind you) that puts my opponent on tilt? im all for being a decent guy at the table, and not being a jerk to anybody and keeping the game friendly. but i still think there are plenty of ways to 'put someone on tilt' without alienating or pissing off the table.

good suggestion. hopefully he doesn't read that post and catch on.

well, now of course there is a line. but you don't HAVE to cross it to influence someone's tiltmeter...

Some thoughts:


1. This isn't directly responsive, but it's more important to be aware of the frustration that develops during the natural ebb and flow of the game rather than doing something that increases it. If you had to choose between figuring out how to recognize and exploit others' frustration and actually creating more of it, you'd much prefer the former.


2. Concentrate on the things that irritate you or have thrown your game off in the past, and try to replicate them.


3. This can be a modest factor that can weigh in favor of an otherwise borderline semi-bluff with a hand that might win on it's bluffing potential but can't win unimproved, such as a turn check-raise with a gutshot and overcards, or 5-outer or similar hand. The inability to win unimproved can be outweighed by the occasinal bad-beat appearance when it is. I like this move more than the mere boderline call that Cooke mentions because it can be correct in it's own right (a fact that will be lost on your opponent) and ratchets up the frustration effect when you suck out.


4. Avoid self-defeating actions. The margins are thin, obviously. You don't want to risk a couple of hours work for a tiny additional advantage. Some ways players self-destruct here: (a) Doing anything like this repetitively; (b) giving away information, such as showing a bluff in a tight game, that can help you beat one opponent but let eight others beat you; (c) Needling the wrong opponent after putting a beat on him. Obviously, this sometimes works against many and often works against some. Against an experienced opponent, however, after a quick burn he might well conclude that you're a weakling, and play the next several hours more confidently. He'll feel less need to go into a loose-aggressive "payback" mode that you'd prefer, but either make no adjustment or, if he thinks you're too aggressive, try to trap you more with mediocre hands, and become more difficult to read; (d) being obnoxious or even merely coarse with sensitive live ones present; they'll leave early and play with you less often.

Here's how I figure the basic idea, as suggested here:


You've got a gutshot and an overcard heads up on the turn. Button Opponent who has likely got top pair bets... and somehow you know there's no way he's going out for a raise, either immediately or on the river. So you also figure to get paid if you hit one of your 7 outs. Without regard for implied odds, you need a little better than 4 big bets in the pot before the bet to call (giving >5:1 odds), and slightly lower than that given the extra bet you can pick up on the river (basically need slightly more than 3 big bets in the pot before the bet then, I believe).


So maybe you'll call even if there's just 2 bets in there. It costs you a not insignificant fraction of a bet right there, but if he's just had two fairly bad beats in the last 10 minutes, and this one will shake his control, it might be worth it. Of course, if a winning a showdown will calm his nerves significantly more than just taking it down on he turn, you probably have to revert to sound "mathematical" play.


But if you take this too far, well then you're the one on tilt. And that's never good.


Does that make sense? Just sounds like what you guys were talking about.


2ndGoat

i wouldnt be laughing out loud at him. that shit can come back on ya...


if the player is a good solid player, nothing you say will put him on tilt. he knows his game better than anyone, and he knows this.


the decent players most susceptible, are the 'teachers' at the table. you dont even have to say anything. just snap em a couple times, and itll take care of itself. the more they yap, and say everyones playing like shit, the worse they may tend to play. theyre putting their overinflated egos out there to be stomped on.

most of the time, i just wished theyd shut the hell up, but some of their musings are just too entertaining. but when they get snapped, they start to get that little edge in their voice. then their real ignorance of the game comes out.


i posted a couple hands like this. 1 was "good ol' kenny" and another was a more recent one...cant remember the name..both small stakes


as far as engaging in verbal vollies, i only fire when fired upon. it tends to carry a little more weight that way. and i let alot of shit slide. but there comes a point, usually when i know most of the table realises what a dip the guys being, that ill say something...but it takes a while. *see the 'good ol kenny' post*

i prefer to do it more subtley.


if you do choose to engage in this, be damn sure you know your own game well. since it can really backfire on ya if a guy knows how to turn it around to make you think of your own game.


just some ideas...


b

was "heres one for ironwood"

both are under small stakes...


enjoy...


b

I made quad 10s on the river once in holdem, and got called by a cranky redfaced senior. I call out "TWO PAIR". Then he reveals he has two pair. I show me hand and he steams "They'd kill you if you said that in Vegas". I actually learned this one IN Vegas.


He was so pissed off that he left the table to walk around for a half hour. I kinda regret doing this, but it is a good way to get people to tilt.


NI}{ER

It's a tradeoff. Being a complete ass all the time will put people on tilt. It will also drive passive players from the game. You will be despised by most.


Laughing at a player suffering a bad beat is a "faux pas" in my opinion.


I have methods as to how I put good players on tilt (if they can be tilted) but I'm not likely to share them with someone who commits the above act.


Regards

Mike Nelson