Was I too nice ?

[fishman]

Last night 5-10 full kill live game.

I've been beating this game very regularly and was up several hundred at the time. This hand was a kill hand. I had the absolute nuts at the river against a somewhat weak player who I had been politely small talking with for a couple hours. Since we were heads up, there was unlimited raising. We went back and forth re raising at the river and I got the feeling at some point that we weren't going to split and that this guy was throwing money at second best. I actually started feeling a bit sorry for the guy and just prior to re raising for about the 5th or 6th time, I said "I have the nuts" and put in another raise. The guy finally just called and I took a monster pot.

Should I have continued to pound this guy knowing I'll be going to this casino quite often ? Does anyone else back off ? I felt he was straining to keep raising and thought he'd just call in another raise or 2 anyway.

[jacki]

I would only let up if you regularly play against him and he's a bad player.
Otherwise, you're leaving money on the table.

[bwana devil]

Ah, I probably would have done the same thing. You've built a huge pot and are getting lots of money off of it and you're having a good time. why drag the last dime out of the guy and kill the good time at the table?

If your one and only objective for being there was to make a killing then you I guess you should have kept raising. But if part of you likes the social aspects of the game, there was nothing wrong with what you did.

Yes, Ed Miller would tell me the pot can never be too big. And from a mathmatical perspective he's right. Factor in the human element and make your decision.

[random]

I like it.

[RydenStoompala]

[ QUOTE ]
thought he'd just call in another raise or 2 anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

No harm done. Good play.

[onegymrat]

This is a great question, but the answer is pretty simple, it's just hard to admit to it. If you feel that you will lose profit in the future by NOT being nice to him (he confiding in you about how and what he plays, showing you his cards voluntarily, etc) then by all means call and show him the nuts. Keep in mind though poker shouldn't be personal, it's simply a game kept score by money, and we're all there to have the best score. Also, HE was still raising back at you. If you didn't take his chips, he would have taken yours.

[sonny black]

shear the sheep, never skin them

[random]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, HE was still raising back at you. If you didn't take his chips, he would have taken yours.

[/ QUOTE ] True.

[willie]

crush the douche for every last dime....gimme a break!

there was a hand up at seneca niagra i heard about, with unlimited raising

sucker had the ace high flush, up against the straight flush.

i believe the game was 2-4 and the river reraising built the pot to about 900 dollars before the guy with the ace finally called.....


if it's not a friendly home game then i'm not goin easy here.


he's lookin to take all those chips from you, so why not return the favor.

[exist]

i would never stop raising.

[baggins]

[ QUOTE ]
i would never stop raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

you'll notice the poster DIDN'T stop raising. he raised and told the guy he had the nuts. how many times have you told somebody you had the nuts, just to jerk them around, or joke with them, or scare them off, or make them call, or whatever?

i think it was a good move. you took enough bets off this guy. let him save some dignity, and he'll probably softplay you sometime. (not that making a habit of softplaying each other would be good, of course...) or tell you how he plays. or at least keep playing. maybe stay in your game a bit longer.

nothing wrong with being nice to people at the table.

shear a sheep, but don't skin him. that's a good quote, whoever said it above...

[ThinkQuick]

I'm not sure I understood this concept until it hurt me...

I'd spiked a river A with my pocket aces on a really crappy board, and it was heads up with the button, a weak player for sure. We raised back and forth a whole bunch, and I finally just shook my head in wonder and called him for pity.
He showed 24s for the gutshot straight.
He had called a capped preflop, 2 cold on the flop with crap, and was the only caller on the turn.

Anyways the point is that he was hoping I'd keep raising 'cuz he had the nuts. He wanted my chips from me. In another situation with that guy I'd play him to the felt.

But against someone you'll play again - I like the raise and say 'I have the nuts'. Unfortunately I couldn't have done so, but maybe one day I'll learn to get the nuts on the river.

[exist]

i didn't say that he stopped raising.

however, it is clear that he tooks actions to stop the raising from continuing. the poster thought that if he just kept raising his opponent would back off after one or two more raises. if the opponent raises one more time, he gains 2 BB. if opponent raises two more times he gains 4 BB. lets say that half the time the opponent raises once more, and half the time the opponent raises twice more. thats 3 BB of EV. since this is a kill, its really 6 BB of EV at the 5/10 level.

say this guys wins 1 BB an hour, that six hours of EV lost because he told the other guy he had the nuts. he said he did this because he felt sorry for the guy, not because he was afraid the guy was going to leave or play better. if he is playing poker for money, then telling the opponent that he had the nuts was a catastrophic error. if he is playing poker for other reasons, well, that's his choice.

[baggins]

fair enough. i think we all know he left some bets on the table.

i think that if the poster was a professional, living off poker as his main source of income, then he wouldn't be asking this question.

as it is, he IS asking, and probably plays for more reasons than taking the maximum number of bets on each pot he wins.

[Luv2DriveTT]

Well you weren't totaly nice, you could have just called instead of raising that last time.... so you DID extract a bit more out of him then if you were being a total sweatheart.

TT in da club /images/graemlins/club.gif

[jacki]

[ QUOTE ]
shear the sheep, never skin them

[/ QUOTE ]

Poster hasn't answered if this guy is a regular or not.

If this is your only chance at the sheep, then I skin him. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[TobDog]

Ok I'm probably gonna catch it for this attitude

[ QUOTE ]
shear the sheep, never skin them

[/ QUOTE ]

If you kill the sheep, won't there be room for a new one? Sure it may take some time to find one as tender as this one, but the harder you work, the better you get usually, right?

[TM1212]

I personally never soft play anyone. If my grandmother is sitting across from me with the last 20 dollars of her social security check, I am still going to reraise till every penny shes got is in the pot, show he the nuts and rake in my pot. Your definately hurting your profits if you soft play, but if profit isn't your main concern fine soft play every1.

For those who used the quote "Shear a sheep..." This doesn't apply, he is ethier gonna take this guys money now, or take his money later and another poor player will step in, Plus the sheep will probably be back.

[TM1212]

[ QUOTE ]
fair enough. i think we all know he left some bets on the table.

i think that if the poster was a professional, living off poker as his main source of income, then he wouldn't be asking this question.

as it is, he IS asking, and probably plays for more reasons than taking the maximum number of bets on each pot he wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

Theres another reason for playin poker then to make the maxium number of BB. What he needs to make friends? Come on there is no reason professional or not to soft play this guy on this hand. YOu also shouldn't feel bad for him. Your teaching him a lesson (never reraise me 20 times with out the nuts or any1 else for that matter), if you soft play him, hell expect you to soft play him next time. By soft playing your not helping him or yourself.

[MRBAA]

I would keep raising forever. I play everyone hard, but I also try to be polite and keep the game friendly. To me, that's the human level. The game itself is take no prisoners.

[Lawrence Ng]

I'm a very social friendly person outside the game when I'm not involved in a hand. It's one of the many things I enjoy and I can maintain my focus while joking it up with Mr. Maniac about hot the cuties over at River Rock are. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

But when I'm in the hand, there is no mercy. Poker is not a gentleman's game. I have never had anyone feel sorry for me, nor would I expect it. If you are dumb enough to keep re-raising w/o the nuts on the river, then you deserve to be taught a lesson the hard way.

[MrDetroit]

Gotta go for blood my brotha.

-MD

[gamblore99]

I personally would have kept raising him. Hes gonna feel bad about losing this big pot no matter what, 1 or 2 more bets wont change that. ANd your not playing for blood, your playing for a little more than a few bucks. UNless this guy has big financial problems, take the extra bets.

Some people may even be insulted by your gesture, as they feel kind of stupid after they keep raising into the nuts and have to be told there beat.

[Michael Davis]

Another new name, eh? Did you get banned again?

-Michael

[fishman]

FWIW, the board was AAK64. I had AK and the other guy had AQ. He felt pretty foolish he hadn't even considerred there may be boats out there and said he couldn't get past the fact that he had top set with top kicker. I at first thought we would split, but later figured he had at least one of the other boats. I was pretty shocked by the AQ. Thanks to everyone for the responses.

[MrDetroit]

Nice to see that you care.

-MD

[Michael Davis]

Good God, did you get from the Oxygen network?

Of course I care. I hope you are doing well, Dummy.

-Michael

[tek]

The answer is simple:

Since you said both of you were reraising, he was after your money. Like the other guy said, crush him...

If you start getting soft on your opponents you will become a weakling. You need to read Sun Tsu, watch some Highlander and grow some balls.

[CanKid]

I suppose this could be considered a +EV move if done very rarely to the right person.

There an older gentleman I let off for a river bet to look like a nice guy (i'm not) at the table I regular, since then he’s let me off in a few situations, like raising on puck with AA, I call in BB, just us two, and he’ll say “roll it?” (I held 77 and babies on flop).