An 88 Hand. Party 3/6

[nepenthe]

A little note on my opponent (MP): seems somewhat loose and aggressive but decent. Have seen him try a lot of fancy plays and slowplays. Will sometimes semibluff aggressively and sometimes check the nuts on the river.

I'm in M-LP with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. 3 limpers to me and I limp along. SB folds, BB checks and it's 5 of us.

Flop: 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Checked to MP who bets out. I'm next to act and decide to raise. Surprisingly everyone folds to MP who calls.

Turn: 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

MP checks. I bet. MP check-raises. I 3-bet. MP calls.

River: J /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Check, check.

Non?

[na4bart]

Bet the river, if you were ahead on the turn it is unlikely you are beat now.

[Bluffoon]

I cant figure out why you three bet the turn and then checked the river. I would have either just called him down or three bet the turn and bet the river.

[nepenthe]

From my read, I figured the guy was too smart to go for a turn cap with a made flush instead of smooth calling and going for a river checkraise. I either fill up by the river and give him a nasty surprise or I check behind and disappoint his stop-n-checkraise attempt. Either that, or I was ahead to begin with and got to the river for the same price as calling down. My thinking is surely screwed up somewhere. Non?

[ElSapo]

I think the only screwup was probably not betting the river.

[ QUOTE ]
From my read, I figured the guy was too smart to go for a turn cap with a made flush instead of smooth calling and going for a river checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't make sense to me. I try and cap while winning rather than let my opponent put in more bets once he gets ahead. He'd also be drawing to charge single-hearts (say, Ah8x) which may not pay off on the river but would on the turn.

Bet the turn.

[Kluddeludde]

I would fold this flop. The pot is small and there are so many cards that you have to dodge on the turn and river. Add that to the fact that at party 3/6 anyone with the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif or Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif (possibly even worse hearts) will likely call your raise.

Kludde

[Bluffoon]

but if you think hes got the flush then why the reraise. I say your plan is good but just call the turn.

[PokerNoob]

I don't get it. If he caps and bets the river, he gets two more, you're obviously not folding. If he smoothcalls and checkraises, he gets two more maybe, or he gets none at all. He also gives you the chance to draw out on him if he's actually ahead and present him with a nasty surprise. If this is tricky, its too tricky for his own good. Bet the river.

[MoreWineII]

Why would he do that? He makes the same amount of bets (possibly more) if he caps the turn and leads the river.

Err yah, Pokernoob above me beat me to it.

[nepenthe]

Yeah, if anyone coldcalls or 3-bets I would probably have given up by the turn. However, the opportunity to face the rest of the field with 2 cold with an overpair was much too enticing to pass up.

[nepenthe]

Just as one of many examples, I've seen him check/call the flop then check-raise the turn with Q9o on a 7J92 no-flush board (he's heads-up by this time) then check the river when it came a 9 (it got checked through and he lost bets). I think he IS too tricky for his own good.

These types of players care less about money than the orgasmic titillation they get through what they consider as deception and trickery. Their motivation seems to be emotive than rational.

At the time I really thought he had a singleton big /images/graemlins/heart.gif, was semi-bluffing and wasn't going to call a river bet, or he had a made flush and was gearing up for a river checkraise.

[spamuell]

I've seen him check/call the flop then check-raise the turn with Q9o on a 7J92 no-flush board

So you've seen him check-raise the turn with second pair. You have a set and won't value bet the river?

[nepenthe]

I have no desire to defend my river check, except to say that I try to utilize in a play, if at all, as holistic a read as possible that I get from a player. Here's another example:

I have 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in MP with 5 other players including the case villain (UTG+1) and the flop of 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif got checked through.
Turn was a 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif. It was checked to me. UTG+1 check-raised. I 3-bet. UTG+1 called. By now it's 3-handed. River was an offsuit T (no flush). Checked to me, I bet, 3rd caller folds, UTG+1 check-raised again. He had 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Now there is no rational reason for him not to have capped the turn, but he didn't anyway, even with the 3rd guy in. Why? I can't think of any rational reason. He just wanted to check-raise the river.

BTW, I can't remember if the aforementioned hand happened before or after the 88 hand, but my read of him remained more or less constant throughout.

I'm just setting myself up to eat my words when I share the results, but that's just the masochistic side in me.

[WarmonkEd]

It sounds like you're affected by that last hand you posted and chickened out. Sure he could have a flush, but you mentioned youself he's too tricky for his own good. I think you'll win more than 55% of the time, so I'd bet the river.

[esspo]

"but decent"

Flop: Decent player bets into multiple opponents, small pot, draw heavy board, you may be drawing nearly dead, all those players behind you - Easy fold imo. This seems like a case where you are either way behind or you are a big dog to end up the winner against the field. If someone has a flush you need runner runner. If you are ahead anyone with two cards bigger than 9 with one heart is a favorite against you.

Turn: The turn action is the perfect example of my concerns. All those people folded (even you were surprised) and the ONE card in the deck that you honestly wanted to see hit the turn and you got checkraised. Your 3-bet: At least he didn't cap. Maybe there is hope.

River: Your check seems inconsistent with the turn 3-bet. This seems like on odd place to have put in the last raise on the turn hoping for a free showdown. You said he was capable of semi-bluffing the turn. I assume that is why you 3-bet. I would follow through with a river bet and hope he will pay you off with his pair + busted flush draw.

[mikeyvegas]

I'm a lemming (http://www.londonstimes.us/toons/cartoons/johann_lemmingsphone.jpg). Value bet the river. You really don't think you're good here 55 % of the time? Don't 3 bet the turn then.

[Alexthegreat]

I don't have any comments on how you specifically played the hand, just a general comment on trickiness......I see average players using checkraises all the time when it is the incorrect play, value wise......It's probably the first "play" that any hold'em player learns, and it's used incorrectly the most.......This may be common knowledge to most of you around here, but against your average player like this villian, I wouldn't give him credit for knowing what the "correct play" is....especially if it requires more than a few seconds of thought to figure out

Anyone follow what I'm saying??

[nepenthe]

Somewhat unexpectedly, opponent had 99, with no heart. I would've broken even by calling down as opposed to taking my line, and I would've gained an extra had I bet the river. Booyah. He was probably thinking something similar to what I was thinking: he's on a flush draw so let's charge him while I'm likely ahead...oops, turn 3-bet/checkraise...not looking so g00t.

[me454555]

3 betting the turn is manditory, regardless of whether hero thinks he is good or not because 1) its too likely that hereo actually is good and 2) even if he's behind and gets capped, hero has a great redraw.

3 betting the turn and checking behind may be the right play against a tricky oppopent or a passive one who you know has a low flush when he check raises you're turn bet. This way, you see the showdown cheap and can extract an extra bet if you hit you're fh on the river

[tadams]

I think everyone agrees that value betting the river is the correct play.

However, I think the more interesting question is whether to continue after the flop.

1) You may already be beaten

2) If you do have the best hand, chances are you will be outdrawn a little more than half the time

If you are beat, you are drawing very slim and it is unprofitable to call. If you figure you are beat half the time and have the best hand half the time, you will only win about 25% of the time. I don't think the pot is large enough to continue after the flop.

That said, I think it is more correct to raise than it would be to just call, but folding is probably best.

-Tom

[esspo]

Please explain.