Help me clear something up on pot odds decisions preflop

[Bigwig]

Assume that you consider yourself to be a slightly better player than the table average.

6 Players remain, Top 3 get paid. BB is t50

Button -- Hero (t3000)
SB (t350)
BB (t1500)

Folded you on the button with T9s. You raise to t200.
SB reraises all-in. BB folds.

You need 150 to call a pot of 625. Clearly, you call.

But, lets reverse the SB and BB stacks. And say the SB now reraises the minimum, to 400.

Yes, you might be getting proper odds to call that single bet. But of course, it's totally different than an all-in decision. You're likely beat at this point in the hand, but could have the best hand by the river. But you obviously can't afford to call large bets to the river, or even to the turn.

So, on pot odds on all-in decisions (either you or the opponent), is the absolute deciding factor, and in other situations, you must prepare to face a large bet on the flop, so you may fold even with 'proper odds?'

How is my thinking here?

[Gator]

Your thinking is pretty good. There are times, I think, when you need to fold to a minimum reraise.

However, I don’t think this is one of them.

If you have 1,500 in chips and raise to 200 and are then faced with minimum raise to 400 – your choice is to see the flop and potentially be down to 1,100 in chips or let if go preflop and fight on with 1,300 (which isn’t terrible shape here). You could argue that fighting on with 1,300 might be the better way to go.

In this case the reraise costs you 200 and you are far from crippled. By calling you would have 2,600 in chips (after calling) and get to see this flop. My rough estimates are that 60% - 70% of the time the flop (and turn and river if aggressor let’s you see them) don’t help you and you are out the 200 chips. 30% - 40% of the time you are helped and you go on to take the pot and some additional chips.

The scenarios are all over the map – monster flop, flush/straight draw that pans out, flush/straight draw that bleeds of more of your chips, or flop that’s easy to get away with.

Ask yourself why you minimum raised. To me, it’s because you are asking the shortstack if he’s willing to play for all of his chips (which you are o.k. with) and you are asking the large stack if he wants to fight, in which case you will yield to aggression. If that’s your game plan, I think it’s a good one. Large stack just surprised you with an interim move. I respond by calling and being willing to fold to aggressive play unless flop is monster (two pair, set, etc). In other words, a rainbow flop of Ten, 3, 2 – I’m prepared to let go on major aggression.

What’s your game plan on other scenarios? For example, you flop and open ended straight/flush draw and it’s checked to you; your opponent goes all in. Same scenario but your opponent minimum bets. Same draw but your opponent checks. Etc. This raises a lot of good questions. Me, I push strong draws (8/9 outers) if checked to me, check if I flop a pair (and it’s checked), etc.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
In this case the reraise costs you 200 and you are far from crippled. By calling you would have 2,600 in chips (after calling) and get to see this flop. My rough estimates are that 60% - 70% of the time the flop (and turn and river if aggressor let’s you see them) don’t help you and you are out the 200 chips. 30% - 40% of the time you are helped and you go on to take the pot and some additional chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I see your point. This reminds me of another situation that I've faced. When I raise in mid/late position with a solid pocket pair (99, TT) and then someone behind me min-raises. In most cases, I fold to a legit reraise, but the minimum reraise makes it a difficult call. In those scenarios, I've been calling if I have the chips and likely playing set/fold on the flop. You're saying do the same here -- essentially. Call, and play off the flop, but fold to any overt aggression?

[ QUOTE ]
What’s your game plan on other scenarios? For example, you flop and open ended straight/flush draw and it’s checked to you; your opponent goes all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I get the straight or flush/draw, and it's checked to me, I'm going to bet it. If at that point he comes over the top all-in, I'd have to figure out the pot odds, stack sizes, players remaining type thing.

[ QUOTE ]
Same scenario but your opponent minimum bets. Same draw but your opponent checks. Etc. This raises a lot of good questions. Me, I push strong draws (8/9 outers) if checked to me, check if I flop a pair (and it’s checked), etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

A minimum bet on the flop would be a lot easier to handle. At that point, you'd be getting good odds on calling your straight/flush draws if you hit them (with the preflop raises in the pot).

Yeah, I'd probably check a single pair. I guess it's player dependent, too.

Man, I hate the mini-raise. Throws me off.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Bigwig,

The question you're asking has to do with immediate pot odds vs. implied odds (money that will go into the pot if and after you make a winner) vs. effective odds (money you will have to spend trying to make your hand, or to see if a hand has held up). These are extremely important concepts that are explored at some length in The Theory of Poker by David Sklansky. If you haven't yet read it, make it #1 on your Christmas list. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cris

[Gator]

Cris,

We end up in a thread together. Would you care to lend your expertise to my response?

I'd appreciate knowing if you agree with how I responded here?