Just like stud

[MRBAA]

I have achieved low limit hold'em nirvana. That exalted state where general odds and strategy knowledge has been tempered by enough playing experience to free the mind for game and player specific adjustments. I know the feeling from stud -- it takes awhile to get there, but when you do it's worth it.

Last night, great 4-8 game with three loose passives, four loose aggressives, two weak tights, and me.

We take a flop five way unraised, I'm holding K6s in the CO-1. Flop comes down:

T63 with one spade (my suit) and two diamonds. Loose, aggressive player, very flaky and will often semi-bluff on the flop bets out. I have middle pair, overcard and backdoor flush. Normally I just call, but there's only one LAG left to act behind me, I think I may be ahead of the bettor so I raise. The LAG three bets -- which doesn't have to mean a big hand. Everyone folds to the original bettor who havers and wavers and folds. I call heads up.

Turn comes another 6, making the board T636 and giving me trips. I check planning to c/r. LAG checks behind. He made a free card three bet on the flop with a draw...hmmmm.

River a non-diamond eight, I bet and get called. He shows two diamonds, Q8 and my hand is good.

Did I play this as well as I think?

[Grvnhigh]

Preflop fold, the rest is fine. Depending on the type of LAG you are up against, trying to bet-3bet the turn can work a high frequency of the time.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially since there is an LAG waiting to act behind him.

Haupt_234

[Nate tha' Great]

The preflop call is sort of like calling the bring-in with (9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif where one of the nines is dead and there is a queen and a jack showing behind you, or something like that.

Postflop ... there is a certain breed of LAG who is very good at smelling out check-raises, probably because they tend to check-raise so often themselves. That said, I think going for the c/r on the turn is probably the right play.

When it gets checked through on the turn, I actually think the right play is to go for a check-raise again on the river. If he is on a busted draw, he will often bet a hand when he might have folded to your bet. If he has a T and felt out your check-raise attempt, he will almost certainly value bet now that a blank has come off and will probably call your c/r. These guys can't stand to see two streets get checked behind in a row.

[MRBAA]

Guys, this is not a fold preflop in this game. There wasn't a lot of crazy raising going on, especially once several people were in. It was very unlikely to be raised behind me. This is the trouble with labels -- the LAG behind me was actually fairly passive preflop but would be aggressive post.

In stud, in loose passive games I'll limp in with (live) hands as weak as (3T) 3. Because if I hit I'll get paid AND if I catch a piece I'll know when to fold and when I'm ahead/can outplay. Same deal here -- the weak hand was +EV for me in this game at this time.

[sfer]

This game routinely has 5-8 way flops, unraised. The limp is easy.

[Grvnhigh]

For argument's sake, I still don't like the limp. It's MP3, and there's only one limper in the pot (two if the SB folded). We all know that this type of hand likes position and volume, and I just don't see enough of either.

[sfer]

MRBAA is not dumb. The blinds always defend in this game I'm sure he could identify if the players behind him (either from their tendencies or from the chips they were grabbing) were limping/raising.

EDIT: There is also a fair amount of meta-value in showing down K6s. MRBAA is easily one of the tightest players in this game and they are all regulars who play each other over and over.

[MRBAA]

That's really the point of the post -- when you are playing low limits, against bad players and have a good feel for the game these hands become profitable. It was two limpers, SB folded.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
MRBAA is not dumb. The blinds always defend in this game I'm sure he could identify if the players behind him (either from their tendencies or from the chips they were grabbing) were limping/raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the rake in this game, or is it played with a time charge?

[Grvnhigh]

In that case, I like it from a metagame/gear-changing perspective. I really hadn't considered that that was the gist of the post, however. Ni han.

[sfer]

$3 per half hour.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
$3 per half hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

A'ight I like the limp a little bit better then. If this were typical small stakes live play with a typically craptastic rake/tip structure, then I don't think the hand is playable.

[bdk3clash]

This thread rules. In terms of my EV, MRBAA is on the short list of people I don't want to sit at the same table as me at that club. He's pretty cool, though, so it's probably worth me being the second or third best player at the table for the chance to hang out with a non-donk while playing that game.

[Joe Tall]

Nirvana?

Misplayed on every street.

Preflop fold.

Flop call, then three bet the LAG's raise behind you tying everyone to the pot.

Once you screwed those streets up, bet the turn in the LAGs mouth as they tend to jam flops and check scary turns.
Once you scrwed the turn up, go for the c/r on the river.

Take care, Carl.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[MRBAA]

keep me humble, Joe, keep me humble.

Seriously, in games with loose passive bad players I really do think this is a call. Not just for this hand, but because it makes my cards virtually unreadable -- I'm already the tightest player at the table. The minute there are even one or two players with a clue, the weaker hands have to go, but I've gone through this same progression in stud and really feel these type of hands add value.

You are playing high, where even the bad players are generally more aggressive. Here, there's no way I could count on the LAG raising. And I wasn't looking to trap -- I wanted to protect the possible best hand and get head up with position against a tricky flop bettor. I was surprised the other guy didn't bet the turn after he three bet -- still am, really.

River is routine. I'm crushing these low limit he games like stud now, Joe.

Now if I could only learn how to beat 1-2 no limit....

[Joe Tall]

You are playing high, where even the bad players are generally more aggressive

So you moved up?!? When did you start playing 20/40 at Foxwoods or 15/30 online?

Here, there's no way I could count on the LAG raising. And I wasn't looking to trap -- I wanted to protect the possible best hand and get head up with position against a tricky flop bettor

You've got great equity with this hand and not much to protect. If you can get a free card than, yes, I raise. Calling this flop is going to drag a much larger pot when you make a hand to protect.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[BottlesOf]

[ QUOTE ]
You've got great equity with this hand and not much to protect. If you can get a free card than, yes, I raise. Calling this flop is going to drag a much larger pot when you make a hand to protect.



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't quite get you here. His equity edge doesn't seem so big to me. He probably has the best hand but I can think of a million turn hands that could hurt him in a multiway pot. I'd be thinking protect over build a big pot myself in this hand.

Can you go into more depth on this one?

Thanks a bunch, Pats suck,

-Bottles

[BottlesOf]

nm

[MRBAA]

Joe, when I say you are playing high what I mean is you are forgetting how badly many low limit players play. I'm sure there are some bad players in your 20-40 games, but even labelling the players in this 4-8 game as LAG or weak tight gives them credit in many cases for having an actual playing strategy as opposed to an odd collection of personal quirks.

I'm also interested in your thoughts on my pot equity here -- I'd never think of this as a hand to trap people with. Instead, I'd like to force other marginal hands out and get head up against a player I may well be ahead of (or have many outs against) with dead money in the pot.

[Joe Tall]

Holding a 4-flush and bottom pair w/overcard kicker has great equity on this flop. However you are likely to behind top pair on a Ten high flop so call the flop and wait for the turn.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

what I mean is you are forgetting how badly many low limit players play

When I asked if you moved up, I was kidding of course. However, I have played in a few 20/40 games where 7 players out of ten had, "an odd collection of personal quirks". Barry will attest.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[BottlesOf]

He doesn't have a 4 flush on the flop.

Are you ignoring me because I'm making fun of the Pats?

[Joe Tall]

He doesn't have a 4 flush on the flop.

Well that changes everything. Then I'm down with the flop raise. If you'all weren't so lazy and used the /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif like they were intended none of the $hit would ever happen.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[BottlesOf]

Sure. It's our fault. /images/graemlins/grin.gif