What's wrong with me ?

[Zelcious]

Everyone is writing about how easy it is to get a ROI of 50% at Party 10+1 NL sng. Well I have played a few houndred now and my ROI is around 0%. I don't know what's wrong with my game, I consider myself a really smart person (5 years studying computer science and math at university level), I have read 4-5 books about poker, read numerous postings here at twoplustwo, including AleoMagus guide for 10+1.
Recently I've had a really bad streak of luck and dropped about 150$ in a few days.
Something is obviously wrong with my strategy but I don't have a clue about what. I've checked a few hand historys of good players playing 50-200$ and I play pretty much the same. I'm just looking for some tips on where my play might fail and how to resort it.

I should probably mention that I play pretty tight and rarely go out before 6:th place.

Maybe the best would be to get my hands of some historys of expert players at 10+1. I would really appreciate if someone could give me access to that.

[parappa]

FWIW, I don't think that most of the people who talk about how you can get a 50% ROI at 10+1s without even looking at your cards play very many 10+1s--my guess is that the majority of them play much higher.

That said, the games are certainly beatable, but it's really hard to get your head around the amount of variance that your results can have. My first 100 games ROI was 35%, and I was very happy with that. I assumed it was normal because it was in line with what everyone was quoting. My 2d and 3d 100 games, I had a terrible run and my ROI was about -5%. Looking back, I was making some bad plays, but nothing horrible enough to justify the huge drop in results--just a newbie working out the kinks in his game. My 4th and 5th 100 games at the 10+1 level, my ROI was about 25%.

The truth is, I'm probably about a 20% player at the 10s. I also suffer from an inferiority complex about posted results. All in, my ROI over 500+ games is about 12%. It's not a bad result, and rather than building a big bankroll I've paid off round-trip air tickets for Mrs. Parappa and myself to go to Japan over Christmas. The drain on the money has left me shortrolled.

I've currently gone 8 in a row OOM and 14 of 15. Having played about 800 of these total (I played many at the 5+1 level and am playing there now while the bankroll recovers--yes, the rake is high but ROI is higher than $5+.50 in a tighter game, so nyah.), I'm not so quick to question whether my game has suddenly fallen apart when I have a bad run.

And, all that said, I'm noticing a difference in the 10+1s at Party from, say, a month ago. I think the games are much tighter; it's not at all uncommon to have 7 or 8 players with the blinds at 100/200. I'm not suggesting that this makes the games unbeatable, but I am well aware that my basic strategy (rock/maniac) works much better in games where there are a majority of loose players knocking each other about. I'm aware that I haven't adjusted enough to the tighter games, and I'm aware that you can't just sit there (as you can in very loose games) and wait for premium hands. Blind-stealing is much more important, and you have to do some/a lot of stealing with non-premium hands, which is something I'm not really used to.

So, don't let it get you down. Imo there ARE tough 10+1 games, especially if you play at weird times (I notice that the games during the day here are much tougher but the games at, say, 8pm-1am Eastern time are much softer. Unfortunately, that's in the middle of the night where I live.)

[Patriarch]

I'm only slghtly up ($40) after playing forty 10+1 SnG's on PP, so I can't really help you. The best advice I can give is to play tight early on. Really tight.

[unfrgvn]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone is writing about how easy it is to get a ROI of 50% at Party 10+1 NL sng.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think too many people think it is easy to get an ROI of 50% at any buy in. I think most people think a good player can achieve a ROI of 35% with varience to either side of that in the short term.


[ QUOTE ]
Recently I've had a really bad streak of luck and dropped about 150$ in a few days.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've recently had a similiar bad streak as well, 15 in a row OTM.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the best would be to get my hands of some historys of expert players at 10+1. I would really appreciate if someone could give me access to that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This might or might not help. In my stretch I was convinced that every 2 or 3 outer my opponets had against me was hitting. So I went through all 15 of my losing hand histories and pulled out every hand where I was involved in an all in hand. While there were some memorable bad beats in there I also found I was getting in with the worst of it way too much. I also found I was making mistakes that led to me getting short stacked which made it a lot easier for my opponets to call and hit those 2 and 3 outers. Perhaps you should review your play and see if some of these flaws are in your game. Post some hands here where you have some question about the best way to play a particular hand.

Good luck.

[Solitare]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone is writing about how easy it is to get a ROI of 50% at Party 10+1 NL sng.

[/ QUOTE ]

The sample you get on this board is highly biased. First, fish are probably are not reading and certainly not posting on this board. Second, people struggling at 35% ITM and a 10% ROI are unlikely to do a brag post (unless they exaggerate, I'm sure that doesn't happen).

Try to ignore the "SnGs are more profitable than buying shares of Apple in 80's. I'm 60% ITM and my ROI is 100%. I'm buying a car with my $10-1 winnings." Just focus on your own game.

Personally, I'm one of the players not heard from struggling at a 38% ITM and a 10% ROI that fluctuates ALOT. I suspect that there are more of me out there than the 35% ROI'ers. And even more fish. Remember that just beating the rake in poker makes you better than the vast majority of players out there.

[oscar057]

I found the basic 10+1 party strategy in the FAQs a great help. I helped give me the disapline necessary to survive the craziness of the early rounds.

[golFUR]

There is plenty of encouragement already. I'll give you some 'keys' that really helped my SnG play a lot.

/images/graemlins/spade.gif Nobody can put you all in but you.
If you aren't certain you have the best of it, just fold. You raised big preflop with pocket Js. You got called by the loosest maniac at the table. The flop came out 568 rainbow. He bet enough to set you all in. Do you really want to win? Really? Walk away, get him later.

/images/graemlins/spade.gif Chip and a chair is TRUE, big time.
So you walked away from the Jacks. You lost another good sized one two hands later. Now it is ten hands in, you've got 200 chips, you are pissed off. Someone raises it to 250 in early position, you are looking at a 7Ts, you spill all in in disgust, hoping for a suck out, knowing you are going to lose... I hate this, I see it all the time. It doesn't matter how low you get, small stacks are callable. Wait, double up, wait again, double up again. Especially if you go down early. The blinds are small here. You can pay blinds for 3 orbits and still double up several times in a row. Don't get impatient, don't get frustrated, just double up.

/images/graemlins/spade.gif Most people don't play nearly aggressively enough.
So you hung out, you doubled up a few times, now you are back at 800 and voila! you get Ks on the button. Someone makes a minimal raise in EP, one caller in between, and you don't want anyone getting off this hook! You just call. ARGH! Forget the traps, forget the slowplays. Save these for when you are chip leader and there are only four or five left. Play your big pockets aggressively, give them the support they deserve. Don't limp in AQs in middle position wondering if these other limpers actually have you beat with small pairs. Raise! Find out!

/images/graemlins/spade.gif An edge is not an edge is not an edge. Just like not all beats are bad beats, so all coinflips are not coinflips. Yes, you can say that you got your money in with the best of it when you called all in with 9s vs. the chip leader's AJs. Was it the right time and the right place? Did it have to be preflop? Isn't there anyone else you can pick a fight with? Wouldn't you rather have 9s vs. 7s?

Just some thoughts. Good luck in your SnGs.

[Zelcious]

I live in Sweden, Europe. So I almost always play at odd times. Maybe that is one part of the story, but I think there is more to it.

[Zelcious]

That's what I do !

[Zelcious]

Actually lately I almost always was all in with the best hand and still lost. There are a few times when I for example tried to steal with 77 on the button and the big blind held QQ but must of the times I actually held the best hand preflop. But that is just my latest 20 games.
The problem might be that I'm shortstacked to often. Maybe I should gamble more, I don't know.

[Zelcious]

Would you consider showing me some of your hand historys ?
Especially the ones where you got far, preferably won ?
It would be very interesting to see if your game differ from mine in any way. You sound like the kind of solid player I could learn alot from.

[Patriarch]

I also play at odd times (on Party) because of the time difference. I still don't think the 10+1 games there are that hard. Granted, I've only played 50 (really, really tiny sample size) and I think my results are still mostly dictated by short-term streaks, but I haven't seen anything so far that indicates these games are tough.

[Zelcious]

I've read it several times.

[Zelcious]

Then it must be a fault in my play. If I just could understand what...

[Rasputin]

Can I interject two questions from a relative newbie?

How many do you need to play before your ROI is worth looking at? 100? 200? More?

Are the ones at Party Poker that much easier to beat than the ones at PokerStars?

[Patriarch]

Here is basically what I do: fold 90% of hands in the early stages. I'm talking about AJs in MP and (maybe) AQo in EP. If I'm going to play I raise, a significant amount. I always play any PP in an unraised pot (probably a small mistake) just trying to flop a set. If it happens, I usually push all-in. I'm looking to go all-in on the flop if it hits me, since I've usually pumped the pot big enough that by then I wouldnt mind either winning it there or taking it to the showdown.
Only when we get down to 4-5 players do I loosen up, and start playing properly.
Anyway, I'm not that good at all, but I seem to get decent results.

[Zelcious]

If I go all in too much, it's usually when I'm shortstacked or really late in the game. Early on, I usually do it only with a set or so.
However maybe I'm to aggressive with overpair, I don't know.

I usually don't give up that easily, I know can come back from as little as 30 chips, I've done it before. I might loose my patience after several bad beats but I try to quit before that happen.

I never limp with big pocketpair, but sometimes I slowplay a set which can be stupid especially when the board is dangerous.

Have to think about that last one...

[rachelwxm]

I do agree with most posters here that 50% ROI over a long run is not sustainable, or no one cares to sustain it. If I have 50 games where my ROI is >50%, I would move up try to make more dollar/game. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I have not played long started about a month ago and I share the same frustrations at 20+2. But since I have about 200 games at 10+1 with ROI above 30% (99% confidence I beat 10+1 game), I try to be a little bit help here.

In general the strategy here is very good. I would fold AQ like trash UTG in aggressive table and constantly folding TPTK if there are lots of actions. But to avoid blinding off in a tight game, sometimes I would min raise first in from late position with Ax or KJs try to steal blinds early on level 1-3. I don’t mind release it if flop miss badly. But you would be surprised a small bet on the flop with rags would take the pot right there.

One big improvement of my SNG game is to learn to loosen up considerably when blinds are 50/100. A few times I push in 4*bb chips with A7 and double up with ace high. The whole table thinks I am a maniac. But a few steals like this would give you a good chance to ITM or even chip leader. Don’t wait for big hands to play!

I think the reason this game is so beatable is average player does not adjust the game enough. People make a lot of mistakes later on by not calling all in raise if it only cost you extra bb with any two card. That’s how good player can make money. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

I certainly don’t think I am anywhere good yet but hope this helps.
/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[NegativeEV]

Over the course of the next couple of weeks, post 5 hands that you thought you played well and 5 hands that you thought you played poorly on this site. Choose a mix of hands from late and early in your tourneys. You may be surprised to find that plays you believe to be correct are viewed by others as incorrect, etc. You may not agree with the responses you get and there will likely be conflicting thoughts on your hands. The intent is not always to give a definative "this is the right play", but rather to get you thinking outside of your current constraints. I've found that posting and discussing my own hands is often more helpful than reading others posts (you'll retain more information if you're getting feedback on your own hands).

If you do post a series of hand histories, I would suggest posting only 1 or 2 per day to give you the best shot at generating responses.

[Zelcious]

I play more or less the same. If I make a misstake or have a fault in my strategy it's probably in level 4 and beyond. Maybe I play to tight then or maybe or maybe I'm risking to much by always going all in when I'm shortstacked. Maybe I should try to see more flops.

[wjmooner]

In answer to your two questions:

1. I'm no math expert, but I would think 500 SnGs would give you a pretty good indication of your ROI. There are various threads about this, try searching

2. I have played on PokerStars, UB, and Party. I have always had a hard time cracking the Party SnG's because it seems like if you don't catch a good hand early on you need to double up at least once in a coinflip situation.

PokerStars SnG's start with 1500 chips and can take twice as long as a Party SnG. This favors the tight/agressive 2+2 player much more than Party's structure. My rate of return is better at PokerStars FWIW.

Just my 2 cents.

Chris

[Zelcious]

Maybe the structure is not right for me, who knows. I've played 30 5+1$ three table tournaments so far and won 165$. Even though 30 tournaments is nowhere near an indication of a stable ROI it's still something. You play alot more hands in those and maybe they involve less luck than single table tournaments.

[ddubois]

I think you might be referring specifically to a comment I made in another thread.

I have roughly 200 tournaments at $10/1 with 50% ROI. I am not sure that's a signifigant sample size, and I could be running lucky.

For more information about me: Every time I move up - first tried the 22s, then moved back down, then tried the 22s again, then moved back down, now trying the 55s - I seem to be doing 10% ROI. Doing 55s now, and I'm getting worse, not better, as my sample size increases... creeping down to 6% ROI now. (So I can make $4 per tournament playing a $55 tournament, or I can make $5 per tournament playing a $11 tournament. I bubbled again 4 times last night, including one game where I tripled up with KK into the chip lead, but lost 1000 chips misplaying KQ and the rest of my stack misplaying 66. I'm despondent.)

But to get back to the thrust of my post, my point is not to whine about my results, my point is to indicate that I am not a great SNG player, maybe not even good. And yet I still trash the $10/1 soundly.

So what's wrong with you? I do not know. How many SNGs have you played? Maybe I'm running well and you are running bad.

Here's one tip I've been trying to tell myself to do, but have not had the discipine to follow through on myself: Count to ten before you call any all-in.

[Eder]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually lately I almost always was all in with the best hand and still lost. Maybe I should gamble more, I don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anytime you are all in preflop you're gambling...If you feel you're one of the better players at the table play post flop as much as possible while the blinds and your stack size allows...( try not to push with QQ/AK/etc)...your bad beats will drop considerably... you'll find you will win enough pots early but never having your entire stack at risk. Theres lots of time to put your stack in the middle during bubble time when your folding equity is highest....try to never see the river,take the pots down fast when flops are favorable,but respect raises into your hand...play defence as well as offense...I play the $10 SnG's and theres always pots for the picking...no need calling down raises with only top pair...I guess I'm weak/tight like that but works fine at the levels I play at. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

btw another thing that has helped me a lot...I read in a book somewhere (not Phil Helmuths haha...think TOP) that before ever calling a bet consider if you would raise instead...if you wouldnt raise the hand then muck it. I try to remember this point early in SnG's where so many piss there chips away smooth calling but drawing almost dead.jmo

[pope rek]

The solution to your problem is to change sites. You should give Poker Stars a try. You start out with T1500 chips and the blinds don't escalate like they do at Party Poker.

I've read a lot of posts here and most success at Party Poker happens when your hand holds up after an ALL IN. It's inevitable not to go all-in preflop at Party Poker and this simply isn't the case at Poker Stars.

At Poker Stars you get a legitimate chance to succeed because you can be cold carded for the first 45 minutes and still have no problem (45 minutes into a Party Poker tournament, you are basically dead if you haven't acquired chips early on).

Yes, the games do last longer and the prize payout is smaller due to the fact that there are only 9 entrants per tournament, however, if you are a good poker player you will have no problem winning over there.

It's always been my belief that at Poker Stars real poker is played in the SNG's and at Party Poker the blinds make the game a fluke where crazy [censored] happens because of preflop all in calls.

You cannot expect to be successful in the long run if the conditions are not favorable. I'm not saying Party Poker isn't a good site to make money from, but I am saying that your variance will be much lower at a site like Poker Stars due to the friendly tournament structure offered.

Hope this helps.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
You cannot expect to be successful in the long run if the conditions are not favorable.

[/ QUOTE ]

???

Party has the perfect one and only condition for making money at this game: terrible opposition (especially at the lowest buy-ins). I agree that this condition stands also for stars, although if you don't play the turbo's, your $/H could get significantly lower there, for playing at the same buy-ins.

(This was actually discussed here 523452845 times before, I don't know why I bother to keep making this point.

...I guess I do it because the things you say are so terribly wrong.)

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Something is obviously wrong with my strategy but I don't have a clue about what.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about possible mistakes you might be doing. I don't see any of it at your post. You say you simply don't have a clue what is wrong with your game, however, even the BEST players constantly go over their play, rethink it, doubt at least small parts of it. Very often they might feel they're doing a specific thing wrong, and try to change it or simply feel they don't adjust well enough to this or that field. And if the best players are doing so, it's very clear that all others should do so much much more. The mere fact that you don't have a clue, as you say, is what bothering me.

Try to think: how do you usualy bust? too early, making a "move" that failed (it doesn't look so. Maybe you should _try_ making some moves, here and there?) Or do you bust right on the bubble, as a tiny stack, waiting for cards that never come? Do you call too many "bluffs", that actually beat you? (probably not, but maybe you just let people bluff you too much?) Or do you play too aggressively against the unbluffable? Are you too tight, too loose? Do you fail at winning 1sts, after getting to HU? How is your general in-the-money play? Do you know how to handle a big stack? a short stack?

All of these, and many more, are questions you should ask yourself daily (if you play daily).

This game could be pretty tough, and you can actually run pretty bad for long periods of time, without doing much wrong. But it looks to me that you don't put enough _specific_ question marks to your game. Try to be much more specific in the way you treat SNGs, I feel it might help you a lot.

Good luck, and post some hands.

[pope rek]

"Party has the perfect one and only condition for making money at this game: terrible opposition (especially at the lowest buy-ins). I agree that this condition stands also for stars, although if you don't play the turbo's, your $/H could get significantly lower there, for playing at the same buy-ins."

Yes that may be true that party has the easiest competition but that seems to be the only thing you take into consideration when gauging whether or not it's a more profitable venture.

Does it or does it not make sense to you that if you were a good player, even four tabling you would be more successful at a site like Poker Stars as opposed to Party Poker.

There are several factors to take into consideration.

1. Player quality - You and a million others claim that there are horrible players at Party, and that's not to be argued because it's true. On the flip side Poker Stars has better players overall, but at an $11 level you're not going to find cream of the crop competition in the first place. I'd also like to point out that depending upon your individual style, it might actually be beneficial to play against better players! Something many actually fail to consider when arguing that Party is the best place to play.

2. Tournament Structure - This is and always has been my argument for just how much money an individual can extract from the game. Fact is this, when it gets shorthanded and HU, you have a better chance to take first. Also when it gets to the bubble, you have a better chance to place. This is due to the blind structure.

If you're playing SNG's your whole goal is to finish FIRST. Seconds acceptable. Third is a bearable.

The whole downside here is the time constraint. Is it worthwhile to spend more time playing if you'd see a higher overall return? Yes. Am I saying that you'd definitely see a better ROI/ITM at Stars - NO.

I will say this though. It would be my argument that if the creator of this thread were to play 100 $11 SNG's at Stars, he would probably see a better return than 100 SNG's at Party. Also, if he failed to produce a ROI better than 0 as he has stated he was seeing, then I'd suggest he sticks to ring games as opposed to SNG's.

Any comments are appreciated.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
You say you simply don't have a clue what is wrong with your game, however, even the BEST players constantly go over their play, rethink it, doubt at least small parts of it

[/ QUOTE ]

good post - i think this is exactly right - you could know everything there is to know about playing SNG's but if you fail to constantly think about what your doing your doing it wrong

there is no magic formula - there is usually a correct choice but sometimes what looks right is wrong and vice versa - assuming you know the answers and your losing because your running bad is like a self fulfilling prophecy - having played a heap of SNG's in the last 3 weeks i now go to bed wondering if i really should of pushed with that A5o when i did

knowledge isnt thinking

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Irieguy]

Start keeping a log of every hand with which you call more than 25% of your stack.

The answer will be crystal clear.

Irieguy

[Zelcious]

When I go all in preflop it's almost always with AA,KK when reraised early in the game or when I'm shortstacked late in the game. I don't see how I cannot be all in late in the game when I'm shortstacked since I then would give up the chance of stealing the blinds.

[Zelcious]

I've played maybe 200-300 10+1 NL tournaments and before that atleast 500 limit tournaments, mainly 10+1 and 20+2.
It's seems my variance is pretty high, sometimes I can go 10-15 games out of the money. Then suddenly finnish 7 times ITM in a row, including 4 wins. Maybe I'm too card dependant. Maybe I'm shortstacked to often and can't bully the table around and steal alot of blinds.I usually wait for good cards and goood spots and then play very aggressively but maybe I'm risking too much on a single hand and should instead loosen up and play more softly.

Going to put that "count to ten" in my arsenal. Sometimes I do call to fast with good but not great hands when I've already invested alot in the pot. Doesn't mean it's the wrong move but sometimes I don't think it over enough. Especially when I multitable.

[Zelcious]

I don't bust out early that often, maybe I bust out before sixth one time in ten.
My headsup play is pretty ok, once I'm headsup I win around 60%. Third is the most common result ITM. Atleast it have been that lately. This and the fact that I have many bubble finnishes implies that

I either is to shortstacked to often
I play too timid
I don't defend my blinds good (I'm actually really bad at defending my blinds)

Maybe I should mention that I beat the 10+1 and 20+2 limit tournaments with ROI of 35% for a long period of time before moving up to 30+3% where my play collapsed and I lost a lot of money. Couldn't get back to my normal game after that and changed to NL sng instead.

[Zelcious]

Maybe it's the other way around, maybe I think to much. I'm the kind of guy that do calculations involving ICM and write my own simulation software. But maybe I've lost the feel for the game by doing this. Maybe I've lost my concentration. Perhaps I shouldn't be playing two tables at the same time.

[Zelcious]

What if the problem is the hands I don't play ?

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes that may be true that party has the easiest competition but

[/ QUOTE ]

wait up.. no 'but'

worse players = mistakes by your opponents = $$$$

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes that may be true that party has the easiest competition but that seems to be the only thing you take into consideration when gauging whether or not it's a more profitable venture.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is the most important factor when choosing where to play. ABC of table selecting in any kind of poker. If you feel more comfortable at another site (because of whatever reasons) that's fine, but it's only a secondary consideration.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd also like to point out that depending upon your individual style, it might actually be beneficial to play against better players!

[/ QUOTE ]

Then there's something seriously wrong with your "style". Your "Style" should be "making money out of your opponents' mistakes". Better players are making less mistakes, by definition. Prefering to play against better players is absurd, UNLESS you do so in order to improve your game, or you play simply because you enjoy playing (and I can completely understand how playing at stars can be more enjoyable, if the "more play" aspect is important to you).

Again, all this was discussed here many times, so you better make a search.

BTW, don't get me wrong, I like stars very much (they have their nice share of terrible fish, at any level), and I play there quite a bit, but saying that it's more profitable than Party because of "structure" and "better players", is just silly.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, don't get me wrong, I like stars very much (they have their nice share of terrible fish, at any level), and I play there quite a bit, but saying that it's more profitable than Party because of "structure" and "better players", is just silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whilst it is certainly fair to say that better players don't make games more profitable (I have been guilty of this ridiculous notion in the past), structure is definitely very important, the less BB you start with and the quicker the levels of blinds increase, the less chance a good player has of making his edge, however large or small count for something. Imagine a game where all players started with 10bb, do people seriously beleive that good players ROI would be as high, well it's simple it would be much much lower. The only sensible arguement on this I have heard is the speed difference at Party makes up for the lower ROI expectation, this is certainly true.

Regards Mack

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine a game where all players started with 10bb, do people seriously beleive that good players ROI would be as high,

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably not, but it will be such a fast game, that playing it might actually be even better ($/h) than any structure you find right now. Bad players are bad players simply because they cannot adapt properly to the structure they play in and the opponents they play against.

Of course, as the blinds go up and stacks go down, your edge per game might become smaller. There are, of course, differencies in structure between party and stars (meaning: you'll have to play differently, taking advantage of different mistakes at different levels), but there's still a lot of room for play (and for having a significant edge) at both places. And since the opposition on Party is generally worse, and the games are faster, it's rather easy to show that your $/H might be higher at party. I agree that it all depends on how good a player you are, in all aspects of game. If you have only _one_ way of playing, you might have hard time winning against some specific kind of terrible opposition. It's all about adjustment.

I'll give you an example: suppose you play an SNG at stars. People are playing "better", i.e, tighter at the early rounds. Blinds are getting higher. At some point you'll find yourself with high enough blinds, against several people, who actually make less mistakes than players on party, while blinds are high (~10xBB). So all you got is more play when blinds are lower, but not enough bad opposition to take advantage of their supposedly terrible post-flop (or whatever) game.

My point remains: as long as the structure is not completely ridiculous (blinds 1/3 your stack, go up every 3 hands or something), the ability of your opponents (i.e, _their_ understanding of the play and structure), is more important than the structure itself, for the pure profitablity of a game.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably not, but it will be such a fast game, that playing it might actually be even better ($/h) than any structure you find right now. Bad players are bad players simply because they cannot adapt properly to the structure they play in and the opponents they play against.


[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, Thats what i expected you would say, probably true as well.

[ QUOTE ]
I'll give you an example: suppose you play an SNG at stars. People are playing "better", i.e, tighter at the early rounds. Blinds are getting higher. At some point you'll find yourself with high enough blinds, against several people, who actually make less mistakes than players on party, while blinds are high (~10xBB). So all you got is more play when blinds are lower, but not enough bad opposition to take advantage of their supposedly terrible post-flop (or whatever) game.


[/ QUOTE ]

Stars games seem to have a theme to them, most of the calling station types get knocked out early and hopefully you get some of their chips to be getting on with, in the later stages most players are weak tight, or too tight and very aggressive when they have something, so blind steals have a positive expectation. If i push on Party the calling standards are usually any PP, any ace, any K, any suited 2, any 2 over 8, this makes things a bit more difficult for me, I either wait and blind out, or push and hope the BB is feeling prudent. Either way I am now at around 50 (not a lot) Party 10+1 my ROI is still negative, while on Stars 50%+ ROI over 400 SNGs has been maintained, even with a negative ROI run of 80 SNGs in the middle. Obviously Party is beatable as others do beat it, so it is obviously something I am doing wrong, but I can't pretend to know what it is.

Regards Mack

[PrayingMantis]

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Obviously Party is beatable as others do beat it, so it is obviously something I am doing wrong, but I can't pretend to know what it is.

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Stars and party play very differently. Your strategy on stars (which I know is great), could be very problematic on party. Adjusting will take time, but I'm sure you'll be able to do it if it's important enough for you. The main ideas are: much more value betting (i.e, being aggressive with the good hands you have. People will keep making unbelievabe calls), much less stealing (although it is, of course, part of the game) and relatively more calls with somewhat marginal hands to bets (even strong bets) by maniacs. Indeed, almost quite the opposite from stars (I'm talking about the lower buy-ins).

And you will find some weak-tight, passive players, on Party too.

[sofere]

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btw another thing that has helped me a lot...I read in a book somewhere (not Phil Helmuths haha...think TOP)

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Ya that is Theory of Poker. Zelcious - If u haven't read it, I highly recommend it. It was the first poker book I read...when I first started playing, I was bad. As in I was a pretty consistent loser in $2 +.50 5 person tourneys.

Then I read the book and moved my bankroll from $20 to $450 over a couple of months...not a bad ROI considering that $20 was a bonus and I never actually put any of my own money in.

[sofere]

Excellent Post Golfur.

Probably the best advice I've seen in tourney forums. [ QUOTE ]
Chip and a chair is TRUE, big time.
So you walked away from the Jacks. You lost another good sized one two hands later. Now it is ten hands in, you've got 200 chips, you are pissed off. Someone raises it to 250 in early position, you are looking at a 7Ts, you spill all in in disgust, hoping for a suck out, knowing you are going to lose... I hate this, I see it all the time. It doesn't matter how low you get, small stacks are callable. Wait, double up, wait again, double up again. Especially if you go down early. The blinds are small here. You can pay blinds for 3 orbits and still double up several times in a row. Don't get impatient, don't get frustrated, just double up.

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So very true...when I look back at my histories...frustration is one of the main differences btwn when I win and when I lose.

Just yesterday, had a horrible beat in the 3rd round of a 5-person NL tourney when a J8s hit a backdoor flush after calling my rais preflop and postflop with KJ when I hit my top pair.

Next hand I got frustrated and bet allin with A-10o and lost a coinflip. I was shortstacked, but not enough to go all preflop on a hand like that. Only thing I could do after that was just stop playing for the day or I would've kept doing the same crap.

[Zelcious]

I have 5 poker books in my bookshelf, including TOP but it's the only one I haven't read yet. Why I left it to last is partly because I've already read Holdem poker for advanced players and I read somewhere that it was more or less a copy of TOP specificly for limit holdem.

[sofere]

Going in on draws is usually a matter of implied pot odds...as you say you are good at math, i'll assume you can calculate those decently.

One of the main other things is sniffing out people who are betting without the best of it. One thing that I do that usually helps is watching the hands i'm not in.

For many hands that i'm not in I try to play a game of putting people on hands and would I have called in that situation if I was still in, or what would be my minimum criteria for calling.

This helps me on many levels...(1) it keeps my head in the game so I don't just stare off at the TV and miss some interesting tidbit of info, (2) it exercises my ability to sniff out bluffs, (3) it helps develop reads on the other players.

[KJ o]

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I don't bust out early that often, maybe I bust out before sixth one time in ten.
My headsup play is pretty ok, once I'm headsup I win around 60%.

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"Maybe" and "around" are the keywords here, IMO. Get the spreadsheet and PokerTracker and know for sure how you do in different situations.

[Zelcious]

I wrote a program that does that. I just have to store my tournament historys that I have on my mailserver on files first. Just been lazy with that and now I have 200-300 that I need to store.

[Zelcious]

The last can perhaps be a problem, I'm not at all that focused I was in the begining. I think I was more concentrated when I played the limit tournaments then now.

[Eder]

What is your usual % of hands that have seen the flop not inc your blinds? What is your normal preflop/postflop raise?