AQ in SB

[Tommy Angelo]

Full $20-40 at LC. I'm in the small blind with AQ. Two players limped and the button raised. The profile on the button is that he has a hand to raise here.

Should I fold, call, or raise?

I called. The BB called. The limplers called. Five players to the flop.

The flop was A-10-x rainbow. Should I bet or check? I checked. All the limpers checked, and the button bet. The profile on the button is that he almost certainly has a hand to bet here. Should I fold, call, or raise? I called. Two players called and one folded. Four players to the turn.

The turn was a blank. Should I bet or check? I checked. Both limpers checked. The button bet. The profile on the button is that he definitely has a hand to bet here. Should I fold, call or raise? I called. Both others called. Still four players going to the river.

The river was a blank. Should I bet or check? I checked. Both limpers checked and the button checked and showed. He turned over AQ, so I did too. Both limpers mucked and we split. Weird little hand. Gnite


Tommy

[largos]

Hi Tommy!
Checking with intention of calling . Nothing wrong with that in your position.

[LarsVegas]

As I have said before, it all comes down to how your general game plan is, how you could play other hands. You wouldn't be chasing two pair with a Ten, a set with a pocket pair or even be in there with a small Ace Tommy.

So is there ever a time where you would play like this and lead on the river with something better than AQ (or preferably better than Ace-King as well)? If so, I could see a case for leading the at the river. I could also see case for leading at the river if you opponents are poor enough not to pick up on the fact that you always have a fair holding only when you suddenly bet out on the river.

Rewind to the flop, and I see case for leading here too. You really want to put more than one-bet-closing-or-almost-closing-the-action pressure on the THREE players behind who are easily given the correct odds to chase a gutshot on this decent pot. If you do not fancy checkraising, leading into a field on an Ace-high flop with a preflop raisor last to act will put some pressure on the players in between.

However, I somehow fancy checkraising the flop too. Perhaps followed up with a meek check on the turn. And if he bets, you could call, and if he bets the river, depending on the moon and the tide you could use your great Tommy-read and perhaps make a beautiful laydown.

Checkraising the flop and leading the turn is very viable if you image is so strong that AK would not threebet the flop or pop it again on the turn.

lars

[random]

How about leading the turn and putting pressure on the two middle players calling with their broadway or two-pair draws? You said he "has a hand to bet" but there are a lot of hands you can beat that he will bet the flop and turn that raise two weak limpers preflop.

[Lawrence Ng]

Hi Tommy,

Long time no see. I still remember our good ol' PL game back in Vegas a couple of years back. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Tommy, I'm not sure how the nature of your game was, but in general against solid players, A-Q offsuit is a hand I hate calling raises with. The reason being is that most times it's either a slight lead or you are majorly dominated. Against most LAG or looser players it's a monster, but against a solid player, I'd hesitate a bit sometimes calling even in the SB with it.

However in your case, you already have 3 other players, and it's a good hand to have with the number of callers. The button, as solid as he is could raise with a variety of hands given his position, but I'm sure you are aware of that already. So calling is correct.

I think to properly play this hand you'd defintely have to take a chance on the flop and do a Check-raise. It's good value, it makes the other two limpers pay for their draws, and ultimately protects your hand if it is the best.

If the solid player is aware and observant enough, he will know you most likely have Ace-big kicker and play you accordingly from there.

[elysium]

hi tommy

i'm trying to figure out what the button's having a hand to raise with on the pre-flop means. does it mean that he would raise with a hand that strategically can use a raise here? or does it mean that he has a strong hand?

if he has a strong hand, and he wouldn't raise pre-flop as a strategic type play, then folding is correct. if, however, he would know to raise from the button for reasons other than having a strong hand, then you should reraise to get the BB out of there, and maybe a limper.

but tommy, under the conditions you describe, calling is almost never correct.

it is very tough to fold AQ pre-flop for 1 more bet. if you had AQs, if his raise meant a strong hand, then calling has merit. the problem with the AQo isn't that you aren't getting correct odds to hit your hand. the difficulty with it is that when you do hit your hand, a weaker hand is capable of folding you out those times the pre-flop raiser is coming in strong. this is a pretty basic concept that many players fail to understand or completely ignore in tougher type games.

when you come in with AX, if you play the hand correctly, you will be trailing any stronger A, and you will also be trailing behind any opponent who is capable of folding you out. and playing AX correctly necessarily means that you will have a 'fold' somewhere on the list under the heading of 'options'; and almost always, folding will be the number 1 option, almost always pre-flop, but also often post-flop. no, you don't have AX in this one. you have AQo. folding is, however, a contingency that you must have written down on your options list. whenever that is the case; whenever folding is an option, you must strongly consider raising because, while you might not be sure what to do, whenever one of your options is to fold, the possibility that calling is not an option increases dramatically. rarely do you ever have 3 options.

often, you find a player asking, 'is this a raise or fold situation?'. actually, that question is a little disorienting. the player should be asking, 'is folding an option?'. if yes, then calling is rarely an option. excluding those rare AJs and ATs events, and perhaps 99, if folding is an option, then calling is not an option.

whenever folding is an option, you should do so early those times that folding is an option, in large part, because a weaker hand can fold you out later in the hand. so whenever folding is an option, you should fold early. so whenever calling is not an option because folding is, it is better to fold early to avoid being folded out by a weaker hand.

that's what you have here tommy. you have a bona fide raise or fold; folding is an option, calling isn't; and to compound matters significantly, there is an opponent in there who is capable of folding you out with a weaker hand. if you were on the button's right, folding would not be an option, and you would ask, 'do i call or raise?'. if you called, and the button raised, if your call closes, calling becomes an option. you are in the same situation though; the button can still fold you out with a weaker hand. it's just that now you are getting correct pot odds to see the flop. it sounds unrelated, but from the SB, calling might be correct if you are very sure that the EP's will not reraise. then, your call closes. so it's really raise, fold or close. you don't have that. you have no idea what the BB is going to do. in fact, you are calling here because you fear a reraise. tommy, this is a clear fold pre-flop.

it is tough to laydown this type of hand for 1 bet on the pre-flop, but that is what you must do here. calling is not an option. raising, therefore, should be the only consideration given to the means by which you plan on continuing further in the hand. you cannot raise because later in the hand, a weaker hand might fold you out. you are out of position, and cannot rely on being able to close. in fact, you have precisely the worst seat in this one. it's a fold tommy. and it's not a fold because you want to save a crummy bet. it's a fold because you don't want to go around kicking yourself for the rest of the session for not knowing better than to pay off like a slot machine against that guy.

what, you folded on the turn? that's not too bad. the turn you say? C minus on this one tommy.

now let me see what actually happened.

[elysium]

hi tommy

i didn't read the rest of the post. i usually do that too so as not to prejudice the response. hmmm, same hand you say? would the button have raised without a strong hand? interesting post tommy.

[elindauer]

Failing to check-raise the flop is a substantial strategic mistake. You have to force out gutshots and middle pairs in this pot. If you get the pot heads up, then you can think about check-calling it down.

Since you didn't check-raise the flop, you should check-raise the turn for the same reasons. Calling gives gutshots and middle pairs odds to beat you, raising does not.

You're so focused on the button that you're missing the big picture. Use player reads to handle close situations. This one isn't close.

Good luck.
Eric

[TwoNiner]

I like the flop checkraise too. Although players could still be getting implied odds after a checkraise they have to worry about the button popping it again and some will fold just because two looks scarier than one. Afterwards you will have to lead the turn into whoever is left which isn't great, but that's just the breaks of having to play from the SB.

[Louie Landale]

This is really "Tommy Blaze-Away Angelo"? Or is it your twin "Timmy Hide-in-the-weeds-until-I'm-paranoid Angelo"?

PF you need to quantify "Has a Hand". If he's raising with AT or betting I'd 3-bet him figuring to win unimproved, otherwise I'd call figuring to win after flopping a pair.

I don't think you gain much by checking and calling here since for whatever reason you don't think a raise is in order if he DOES bet, and you will certainly wish YOU had bet if he checks (which seems likely based on your Profile).

I think you need to face the callers with a double bet, since they are getting the right odds for their gut-shots considering there are two folks with a pair of Aces. This wouldn't apply if that "T" was a "9".

You prefer to face the limpers with a double bet and you wish you had bet if Villian checks. I think you need to play the two middle rounds more assertively.

Unless you can fold on the river or he's GOING to continue a bluff, you are MUCH better off betting out than checking-and-calling (especially since you can easily fold to a raise); even if you are a dog when called. So the repugnant betting pattern check-call-check-call-bet CAN work in this situation.

- Louie

[skp]

I don't get it. That's the game's easiest flop checkraise. That play is vastly superior to calling (and probably superior to betting out).

You know all of that is true in the general sense...that's why I say "I don't get it". Please explain your thinking in this specific spot.

[Luke]

Hi Tommy,

I have to agree with some of the others. You need to pop a checkraise in there somewhere. I'd probably get all anxious about it being checked through on the turn, so I'd most likely pop the CR on the flop.

But I think it's fine to CR the turn and may be the best idea if you're pretty sure the button will keep betting and your other opponents are loose enough to call 2 on the flop with a gutshot but tight enough to fold for two on the turn.

Luke

[andyfox]

"Gnite"

Last night I was reading a baseball book and there was a picture of Bill James in it with the caption "ill James."
So my first thought on seeing "Gnite" was a typo for "Ignite." Then I realized you were saying good night.

Ignite would seem appropriate since you'll probably be flamed for this hand. I have to admit I don't get it either. Please splain.

Thanks,
Andy

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
... players could still be getting implied odds after a checkraise (but) they have to worry about the button popping it again and some will fold just because two looks scarier than one ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Dead on. You aren't guaranteed to fold a hand like JT, but you've certainly made it tough on them. Your raise should knock out gutshots though, and since any two paints form a gutshot right now, that's a big win.

Good luck.
Eric

[andyfox]

"that's just the breaks of having to play from the SB."

Therein lies the rub, methinks.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you need to face the callers with a double bet, since they are getting the right odds for their gut-shots considering there are two folks with a pair of Aces. This wouldn't apply if that "T" was a "9".

[/ QUOTE ]

Right on. If it's A9x rainbow, then gutshots aren't a concern and middle pair may not fold to a flop raise anyways. If this had been the flop, check-raising the turn would be the play to punish / fold weaker aces and middle / bottom pair draws. You'd also be more likely to be ahead, as you now beat the raiser if he has ATs.

Good luck.
Eric

[TJSWAN]

Hey Tommy,

Check raising the button from the SB only gives the limpers a chance to escape for free, not trap them into cold calling off another 1.5 BB each.

Once the turn blanks I think it's easier to let them hang around.

Would have been a fun time to bet the river dark /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Those are my thoughts.


Tim

[Zeno]

P. G. Wodehouse would not have synopsisized your hand as you have. I am equisitely dissapointed. Please read Code of the Woosters and then repost the hand.

-Zeno

[mike l.]

"The river was a blank. Should I bet or check?"

bet and it aint close.

and if you had folded preflop that wouldve been cool too.

otherwise i like it. and well written. a better subject though wouldve been "hand".

[JimmyV]

[ QUOTE ]

Check raising the button from the SB only gives the limpers a chance to escape for free, not trap them into cold calling off another 1.5 BB each.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting and somewhat surprising perspective. I'm going to keep it in mind, but I think it applies better to other hands than this one.

The point of Tommy's smooth-call is that he wants to see a showdown with this hand. But that means two more cards are coming before this hand is over. And if two more cards are coming, and only 3 possibilities are good for Tommy, he needs to knock out drawing hands -- and that means LEGITIMATE drawing hands as well as illegitimate ones. (The illegitimate ones won't even call the one bet.)

I think the check-raise is especially necessary here because JK is a realistic limp-call check-call hand for the other two players. If one of them holds this and you don't force them out you're drawing dead to AK and will lose your shirt if the Q comes.

So I agree, even after processing the point that the other two opponents are drawing thin, with Lars:

"I somehow fancy checkraising the flop too. Perhaps followed up with a meek check on the turn."

Perfect.


Note that opponents who are drawing EXTREMELY thin, and therefore 'trapped,' won't call the one bet anyway.

JimmyV

[Philuva]

Seems like the perfect spot to CR the flop since the aggressor is on your right and you can force 3 limpers to call 2 bets on a gutshot or 2nd pair rich board in a not-so-small-pot.

[Senor Choppy]

Jimmy alluded to this already, but there isn't a hand that's really dead vs. AQ here. The best you can really hope for is something like Ax, but they still have 3 outs, and they're getting nearly correct odds to chase if they get paid off by multiple players.

Whatever play someone in this hand decides to make, it shouldn't be based on trapping anyone, this hand is simply too vulnerable vs. too many types of hands.

[SA125]

Andy - "Ignite would seem appropriate since you'll probably be flamed for this hand"

That's funny. And true. Hey Tommy, you know c/r was the default play there, and everyone knows you know it, so que paso?

Steve A.

[nykenny]

is the button SUPER-WEAK-TIGHT? if so, you play is fine (not that I try to judge); if not, i'd had C/Red either FLOP or TURN.

button could have had AA, AK, AQ, AJ or ATs, remotely A9s, A8s...

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
but tommy, under the conditions you describe, calling is almost never correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

btf? i think calling is FINE.

[JimmyV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but tommy, under the conditions you describe, calling is almost never correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

btf? i think calling is FINE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Better than fine.

I agree with nykenny and intend to bear his children ectopically.

JimmyV

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but tommy, under the conditions you describe, calling is almost never correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

btf? i think calling is FINE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Better than fine.

I agree with nykenny and intend to bear his children ectopically.

JimmyV

[/ QUOTE ]

you never said you loved me yet /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[1800GAMBLER]

Knowning so much about his postflop play must be worth 2 outs?

[WarmonkEd]

[ QUOTE ]
is the button SUPER-WEAK-TIGHT? if so, you play is fine (not that I try to judge); if not, i'd had C/Red either FLOP or TURN...

[/ QUOTE ]

Shouldn't he still c/r the flop or turn in an effort to kick out the other players? If he had a stronger hand, such as a small set, but was afraid the button had a larger set, then calling down would be better since there's a much smaller chance of the other players drawing out.

[skp]

Doesn't matter how tight the button is, the play is still to checkraise the flop. It reduces the field (while also perhaps cleaning up your Queen outs i.e. KT might fold assuming the flop was AJx ...by now I have forgotten what the flop was). Then, if the button 3 bets, you can reassess and perhaps fold on the turn assuming you don't improve or pick up a gutshot draw.

I simply don't see how chcekcalling 3 streets in this spot is superior to showing some aggression on the flop.

[Clarkmeister]

"if the button 3 bets, you can reassess and perhaps fold on the turn assuming you don't improve or pick up a gutshot draw."

Man, that thought would never cross my mind.

[na4bart]

Absolutely the best god damn analysis of a situation I've read in a long while. Much thanks.

[skp]

Well, I think you know that I said what I said just to make a point :-)

[BottlesOf]

Clark-we miss you in SS.

Everyone- Just because this guy raised preflop, we're supposed to play our hand weakly postflop, when it's likely we have the best hand?