how to play bottom set

[rocflight]

This is about a 200+ tourney with 51 people left, blinds at 400/800. I had a little less than 9000 left (average was at 11000) and the villain had almost 10000.

I was in mp with two 7's and decided to limp. Four limpers to the flop, 7 Q J rainbow. I check to induce a bet (is this wrong?), two behind me checks, villain bets 1200. I pause for a little bit and reraises to 3600 (too small?). Two guys behind me fold and the villain calls the bet after some thought.

Turn brings an ace, I checked fearing a made straight(was this wrong in that it may have shown signs of weakness?) and the villain checks as well.

River is another ace and now I have 7's full. How should I have played it here? I figured even if the guy hit his straight, I have him beat, so I bet 3200 or 3/4 of my stack. The guy reraises me all-in and I quickly call. He turns over AQ and I'm beat by aces full. The thing is, I never put him on AQ and certainly not QQ or JJ, should I have?

Now, even if I had pushed on the turn, with his 2 pair, he probably would have called anyhow. I just don't know why he called my reraise on the flop. I was playing very tight, only showing down AA and QQ my entire time at the table, which was at least 4 rounds.

Please let me know my mistakes in this hand as well as general advice of how to play a bottom set. This is my first post here, so I'd really appreciate some help. Thanks.

[Cleveland Guy]

Okay, let me see if I can try.

Pre-flop yo are okay. If you are first into the pot a raise might be okay, but nothing wrong with a Limp IMO.

4 To the flop, means the pot is around 3200 (depending on if the SB is one of the 4, but I'll assume he is.) or was it 4 limpers plus the BB? You don't give positions so it's hard to say.

Okay so on the flop the pot is around 3200 or 3600 or so. He bets 1200 (1/3 Pot) and you raise up to 3600. So he now has to call 2400 into a pot of 8400.

I would have bet more to make him pay for the draw you thought he was on. But would he really call that much on an inside straight draw? I might have just pushed in on the flop here, and hope he has a hand worth calling.

The Turn - you have to push here. a straight is very unlikely, and your set is probably good.

River - You have a full house, your going all in, but cards happen. Maybe the push on the river would have got him to fold.

You seem shocked he called your raise. First - he did have Top Pair, Top Kicker, and was down to just about 10xBB left, so he might have thought you had a lesser Queen, AJ, JJ or some hand like that.

Just because in 4 orbits you had only showed AA and QQ doesn't mean you will get a lay down every time you raise.

[rocflight]

Sorry for some ambiguities. The 4 limpers included SB and BB. And on second thought, I believe the blinds were actually 300/600, so my reraise at the flop was pot sized. Anyhow, I see how my play was a bit weak and didn't put too much pressure on the other guy.

Can someone give some general advice as to how to play a bottom set?

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the push on the river would have got him to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, that's a pretty tight player that will fold on the river with the nuts. lol

As for the hand. I like the preflop limp if you can expect more limpers (i.e. the table is loose passive). If the table is tighter, I like an open raise (were there any limpers to your right?).
On the flop, I really don't like going for the check raise. There was no preflop raise and there is only one player to act behind you, so there is no indication that it won't get checked around there. Getting checked around there is pretty bad. You got lucky that the LP player bet and you were able to ch-raise.
On the turn, the ace is a scare card for someone who bet out on the flop and was ch-raised. I don't like checking there since you give infinite odds to someone who has a gutshot. I would bet out enough that pot commits him one the river if a blank hits and he has 1 pr / 2 pr.

On the river:
After his the flop, I put him on KQ/AQ, KT or a slowed down set (less likely given his preflop limp)
After he checks behind on the turn, I put him on exactly KQ. I can't imagine why he would call the flop, catch his perfect card (the Ace) and not bet it on the turn when the board is draw-licious.
I would underbet the pot on the river and go all in on any raise from him. If he has JJ/QQ/AA/AQ, well, I'm going to lose on this hand.

[gergery]

Preflop. Call is fine. If blinds are any higher or your stack is lower (<10xbb) then you want to push instead of calling (you may want to push anyway). I like raising here better tho, as that gives you a chance to win the blinds outright. With everyone having stacks this short, you pretty much need to take someone’s stack almost everytime you hit a set to make this play correct.

Flop: You have a very strong hand and are happy to get all your money in the pot. The question is how to get all his money in. With a QJ board, that is very likely to hit many hands that someone would limp with, so they are likely to be willing to pay to stay in. You must make sure you charge them for this. If someone will bet for you then check is fine. Raise outright is fine too. I would bet the most I think he’d call – your raise size seems fine.

Turn: Bet the most you think he’ll call, probably push. Checking is bad – he is likely scared you have a good hand here given your checkraise. You are only beat specifically by QQ,JJ,KT – you can’t look for monsters under the bed as you are ahead far more frequently.

River: bad card for you. AQ/AJ/A7 are all common limping hands and can be added to hands that beat you, but there is enough money in and you are ahead enough that you must go in. bad luck.

--Greg

[SossMan]

<font color="blue"> The question is how to get all his money in. </font>

yes, it is.

<font color="blue"> With a QJ board, that is very likely to hit many hands that someone would limp with, so they are likely to be willing to pay to stay in. </font>

yes, again.

<font color="blue"> You must make sure you charge them for this. If someone will bet for you then check is fine. </font>

The check most certainly isn't fine. Preflop action is hero open limps, LP limps, SB completes, BB checks. What about that action indicates that the LP is going to bet this flop to allow the hero to ch-raise. Hero has to bet out on this flop.

<font color="blue"> River: bad card for you. AQ/AJ/A7 are all common limping hands and can be added to hands that beat you, but there is enough money in and you are ahead enough that you must go in. bad luck.
</font>

You are looking at just the preflop action. They may be limping hands (though I think AQ would probably raise a preflop MP open limper), but they are not consistant with the turn play of checking behind on a draw heavy board. What player do you know that will check behind AQ or AJ or A7 on that board when checked to when the ace hits the turn (well, this opponent for one, but I would have to think that 95+% of opponents would bet there when they make aces up on the turn)
I think it's much more likely that the opponent checked behind the nuts KT (which would be consistant with his flop play) with no flush draws out to allow his opponent to make a 2nd best hand.

-SossMan

[gergery]

Thanks for the comments Soss

I say “IF he’ll bet, THEN check is fine”. I make no comment on how likely last guy is to bet --- and I do say a free card is bad here. For record, I agree betting is better here.

Hmm, I tried working it thru backward and there were fewer hands than I thought that would play like this. Putting people on hands is the part of my game I feel weakest at. So,

-- what hands would limp preflop (quite a few, depending on the game),
-- raise after 3 limpers (could be quite a few including pure bluffs, but most likely caught part of it), then
-- call a checkraise (must have caught part of it, but could be a number of hands), I’d think 98, KT, AQ, KQ most likely. But maybe QQ, JJ, QJ, AJ, A7, Q7, J7 if he’s tricky/thinks your bluffing, tho I admit those get more unlikely.
-- then check the turn when the A hits (same range of hands – could be encouraging bluff, afraid of straight, etc.). I know My two pair would be worried that a checkraiser was helped by the A, but maybe I’m too weak-tight here.

--Greg

[patrick dicaprio]

on the flop here you dont want to give a free card. what i would do here is bet an amount that might make it seem like you are weak and are trying to take the pot, maybe 3/4 of the pot. whenever i bet and get raised here i go all in without a second thought. most times with high blinds you will be called by TPTK or an overpair.

i dont know why your opponent checked the turn here. i bet tho he was congratulating himself for sucking you in and inducing you to go all in. that was probably his plan i suppose, but if he is strong enough to call your raise on the flop he should be strong enough to bet. if he put you on trips and called then that is even worse IMO.

Pat

[rocflight]

First, thanks for all the helpful responses.

I pretty much got the idea that not leading at the flop was not a good idea. I guess I should mention that the table was pretty loose. And the villain was one of those players.

I figured that 4 handed, the flop was likely to have hit someone, so I checked hoping for a bet. In hindsight, knowing that the table was loose, I definitely should have led out 1/2 - 3/4 pot and pushed with any reraises, which seems likely.

Now suppose only the villain calls and the ace comes on the turn. That is much more of a scare card for me because of the mere call on the flop and the guy could easily have a drawing hand.

What's the correct play here? Suppose I led with 3/4 pot on the flop, that means the pot is 5600. My stack is about 6500 at this point. Would a bet of 2400 be in order here to test the waters? What do I do if he just calls and another ace hits? If he pushes here, I have to call anyhow because of the pot odds. And even if he had hit the staright, I still had outs. I don't think pushing to lead on the turn is the right move here because I'm likely beat if called.

Is the only way to avoid the bad beat to raise all-in on the flop?