Peace Train has no place in America. [Archive]

MMMMMM

09-22-2004, 08:51 AM

Well if there is validity to that statement then it isn't unreasonable to deny him entry and might well even be against the law to let him in.

He did support the death-fatwa against Salman Rushdie, so he isn't exclusively a "peacetrain" type of guy--though he has spoken out recently against really bad terrorism like in Russia.

He opened an Islamic school in London, so maybe that school has taken more of a radical turn or something lately, or has become associated with the radical London Islamists. At any rate if he did donate tens of thousands to Hamas, which is on the official terrorist org list by the US gov't., then one can see why he too would be on the watch list or whatever.

Beer and Pizza

09-22-2004, 08:58 AM

Do entertainers receive special consideration?

They let John Wilkes Booth have free and open access to Ford's Theatre because he was a famous actor. How well did that work out?

sfer

09-22-2004, 11:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"In July 2000, Stevens was denied entry to Israel amid reports that he had donated tens of thousands of dollars to the Islamic terrorist group, Hamas."

I wonder why Isreal has beef with him, or if there is any validity to this statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is that the Israeli government has a beef with him because they believe that statement to be valid.

wacki

09-22-2004, 11:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do entertainers receive special consideration?

They let John Wilkes Booth have free and open access to Ford's Theatre because he was a famous actor. How well did that work out?

[/ QUOTE ]

That was not my intent. If Cat Stevens did support Hamas, then he should probably be in jail.

I was shocked about Cat Stevens because his music is so calm and peaceful. It's difficult to believe a man like that would support Hamas. If he has, then the governments of Isreal and the US are being to light on him by merely preventing him from entering the country.

[ QUOTE ]
"He did support the death-fatwa against Salman Rushdie, so he isn't exclusively a "peacetrain" type of guy--though he has spoken out recently against really bad terrorism like in Russia."

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy cow MMMMMMM, that is huge. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only thing that Salman Rushdie did wrong was write a novel about how he lost faith in Islam?

Any way, according to his website, he did not support the fatwa. Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Salman+Rushdie+death+fatwa+cat+stevens&btnG=Se arch) The website is down, but you can read parts of a FAQ in the google search link.

but according to
http://www.anecdotage.com/index.php?aid=17121

"I never actually supported the fatwa," Yusuf told a VH1 audience, "but not many people know that." The public, he said, "remebered the headlines, which were made up..."

The facts, however, indicated that Yusuf was lying. On February 21, 1989 - one week after the fatwa - Yususf addressed a group of Muslim students at London's Kingston Polytechnic. Yusuf was asked Rushdie's death sentence. "He must be killed," he replied. "The Qur'an makes it clear. If someone defames the prophet he must die."

Yusuf later backpedaled once again, defending his stand on the issue and calling the fatwa a deterrent (which he likened to America's possession of nuclear weapons). "My only crime," he remarked without a trace of irony, "was, I suppose, in being honest."

[Yusuf also defended the amputation of a thief's hand and the stoning of adulterers (as prescribed by Sharia) and (perhaps unwittingly) donated money to "charities" which funded terrorist activities. What prompted Stevens's conversion to Islam? A large wave which he claimed had saved him from drowning while swimming in the ocean.

Looks like Cat Stevens might actually be CrAzY!!!

I remember someone posting a article about a senator that couldn't fly because he was on a no-fly list. Turns out that different websites are reporting that differently as well. Some are saying that he had to call Ridge to board the airplane and others are saying that a supervisor had to check his identity and it took three calls to Ridge to have his name permanently taken off the list.

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/view.bg?articleid=40687

Guess that isn't so bad either. I retract my gestapo statement.

Beerfund

09-22-2004, 11:32 AM

GWB

09-22-2004, 01:21 PM

Trust me, my administration knows what it's doing. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

whiskeytown

09-22-2004, 01:28 PM

I remember reading where Natalie Merchant and 10000 manaics were none the too happy that their cover of Peace Train was being promoted as a single (from the MTV Unplugged session)

between the time they did it and the promotion, Cat declared Jihad.... - seems they didn't like promoting his new way of thinking...

RB

Beer and Pizza

09-22-2004, 01:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do entertainers receive special consideration?

They let John Wilkes Booth have free and open access to Ford's Theatre because he was a famous actor. How well did that work out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good example that was 130 years ago. no way anything like that happens today.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you are joking here.

OJ got off due to celebrity, and lots of celebrities get treated special in lots of places.

I'm just waiting for the next one to take advantage of their celebrity to pull off something criminal.

Kurn, son of Mogh

09-22-2004, 06:32 PM

First of all, Yussuf Islam (fka Cat Stevens) once publically called for the death of Salman Rushdie FOR WRITING A BOOK.

Second, to use the term Gestapo when referring to the war on terror, you reveal yourself to be truly stupid.

wacki

09-22-2004, 06:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, Yussuf Islam (fka Cat Stevens) once publically called for the death of Salman Rushdie FOR WRITING A BOOK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, if you read my second post, I covered all of this already and retracted my original statement.

[ QUOTE ]

Second, to use the term Gestapo when referring to the war on terror, you reveal yourself to be truly stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, how is using Gestapo as a slang term for crazy police force "truly stupid"?

Secondly, even if I wasn't using it as slang.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo
The role of the Gestapo was to investigate and combat "all tendencies dangerous to the State."

Tell me how the basic premise of the Gestapo which is investigating "all tendencies dangerous to the State." is that much different from from office of homeland security.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/homeland/
The Department of Homeland Security was created with one single overriding responsibility: to make America more secure.

Look, I think the Office of Homeland Security is a good thing. I retracted my previous statement after I learned Cat Stevens is a psycho. I hope you can understand why it's so hard to believe listening to his songs. And I don't think using gestapo to refer to a police force going to extremes in protecting it's own country is stupid or historically inaccurate.

Again, Homeland Security is good, Cat Stevens is psycho, the original senator report I read was spun way out of proportion. And gestapo is a slang adjective refering to extreme police force. Which Office Homeland Security, in both of these cases, is not.

Is that ok?

Kurn, son of Mogh

09-22-2004, 07:03 PM

I know, if you read my second post, I covered all of this already and retracted my original statement.

Fair enough. My bad for not reading all the posts.

First of all, how is using Gestapo as a slang term for crazy police force "truly stupid".

"Gestapo" is not a slang term for anything. It is a specific reference to Hitler's secret police. It isn't even funny as hyperbole and I personally think that likening politicians with whom you disagree to Nazis demonstrates at best intellectual laziness and at worst a true ignorance of the evil that was Hitler. The current administration, whatever you think of it, has done precisely zero to deserve that kind of comparison.

However, I will accept the fact that you were trying for humor (busting Teddy as a suspected terrorist is pretty stupid) and retract my "stupid" statement.

wacki

09-22-2004, 07:24 PM

Kurn, son of Mogh,

Thank you for being reasonable. I was trying for humor. Where I come from we use Nazi rather freely as an adjective for anyone that is psycho about anything. Such as a chocolate Nazi is someone who is crazy for chocolate. I did not mean any disrespect to the Office of Homeland Security or the current administration with that comment. I support the war on terror, as well as the ousting of Saddam for humanitarian reasons alone. I also know the horrors of Nazi germany as I have been to the U.S. Holocaust Museum, stood in the gas chambers at Auschwitz, the Reichsparteitagsgelaende, and the zepplin fields of Nurenberg.

I simply didn't think people would take that much offense to the word. Where I come from people use it rather freely, I guess inflection is everything.

I will be more careful in what I say.

Blarg

09-22-2004, 09:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What prompted Stevens's conversion to Islam?

[/ QUOTE ]

The business about a wave was lying, I think. Hell, I used to live a block from the beach in Hawaii and bodysurfed every day for years and it never made me want to read the Koran.

Cat Stevens had a habit of having his girlfriends leave him for bigger rock stars. Seems the mopey moon-eyed sensitive soul just couldn't keep his women. Probably the mopey moon-eyed sensitivity had something to do with it? He even wrote a song about one of them, Patti D'Arbanville, called "My Lady D'Arbanville," which sounded like a vaguely disguised death wish, as it fantasized her dead but him still loving her. Fairly disturbing stuff.

His later albums got some weirder themes in them. I think he tried to "toughen up" sort of like Janis Ian tried to become more of a "rock and roller," but it didn't work well. One of his last albums was called "Foreigner," and I think he eventually wound up feeling like one and then took it the next step and became one -- as distant from his own life as possible.

Talented as he was, he seems to me to be one of those deer-caught-in-the-headlights guys who was always in search of something and couldn't stand on his own. I'm sure we've all known people who've found the world harsh over time or had terrible trouble with women and suddenly became born-again or joined some cult or other. They need something, anything, but most of all something ordered that tells them there really are answers for every question and YOU can have them. What does that more than religion, and what major religion a westerner is ever likely to bump into is more regimented than Islam?

Wave, shmave. I think it was just a natural though sad inevitability. A matter of time.

Blarg

09-22-2004, 09:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Good example that was 130 years ago. no way anything like that happens today.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I assume you are joking here.

OJ got off due to celebrity, and lots of celebrities get treated special in lots of places.

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost all the civilians in L.A. licensed to carry guns undercover are celebrities. You know, those guys with no jobs who drink like crazy and take lots of drugs?

Celebrities are routinely let go at traffic stops too. It can cost a cop many things, including his career, to write a ticket to a celebrity for drunk driving. The ones you hear about are the smallest, most egregious fraction of them.

This is hardly a country that doesn't worship celebrities and grant them extra privileges.

Jett Rink

09-23-2004, 04:24 AM

First off, I am totally against terrorism. But to say Cat Stevens is anything but a peace loving human being is downright ridiculous.

Media coverage has been so slanted against him without fair research to both sides it is unreal. When he supposedly stated Rushdie must die he in fact was pushed for an answer on the topic. New to Islam he did say yes that is what the scripture says. However, as he pointed out himself, it was like a Christian saying there are ten commandments and this is what they say. Very straightforward. Certainly not a condemnation of Rushdie from Cat Stevens himself.

People should listen to his music. It is timeless and has alot to say. I know for a fact I am a better human being because I am a Cat Stevens fan. How many musicians can that be honestly said about.

Now he gives his time and money to help the underprivileged. This is a man who should be looked up to and not continually belittled by the media and public alike. If some of his charity donations found there way to terrorism groups I am positive this is without a doubt unintentional.

I would trust Cat Stevens (Yusuf Islam) with my life and I can count the number of people I have as much respect for on one hand.

Think for yourselves people.

nicky g

09-23-2004, 05:58 AM

The Hamas connection claim comes from the Israelis, and even they only claim that he gave money in 1988 (see here (http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040922_1334.html)) - a good five years before the first Hamas suicide bombing and when it functioned largely as an Islamist political organisation with a social/charitable wing. I'm not sure precisely when Israel banned Hamas but its activites were permitted by them up to at least the mid-1980s; in 1988 it was not widely regarded as a terrorist organisation. There don't seem to be any details available on the accusation (if anyone has any please post) so it's quite possible for example that Islam gave money to a Palestinian charity that distributed it to Hamas clinics/schools, or whatever. It's also possible that the Israelis are talking crap.
Note that Jack Straw, the UK foreign secretary, made a complaint to Colin Powell about this, indicating that British intelligence did not believe Islam has any terrorist connections. Islam on his part recently donated half of the royalites from a recent retrospective album to a charity for 9/11 victims. I agree his remarks on Rushdie were abhorrent if reported correctly, but the idea that he is a threat to US security seems silly.

adios

09-23-2004, 06:28 AM

Is he a U.S. citizen? If not who cares if he was denied access.

nicky g

09-23-2004, 06:33 AM

I don't paticularly care. I was just pointing out that his "terrorist connections" are not quit e what several have painted them.

adios

09-23-2004, 06:49 AM

I understand and my comment was directed not at your post in particular. If the U.S. is being overly cautious so be it but if somehow his rights as a U.S. citizen were being violated I'd say there's a story there. If he's not a U.S. citizen I could care less for a few reasons. Many in the U.S. are complaining about "profiling" in this case. Generally speaking I don't have a problem with non U.S. citizens being profiled in the U.S.

nicky g

09-23-2004, 07:17 AM

Fair enough. However, while I agree that it is up to the US who it lets in to the country, how it profiles them etc, it's worth remembering that it almost certainly has an agreement, and if not an understanding, with friendly countries such as the UK that their citzens will be allowed entry and not submitted to undue harrassment without very good reason. If the US breaks that agreement, as Straw's complaint indicates the UK thinks it has, then there may be unappreciated consequences for US-UK relations and ultimately for US vistitors to the UK (as there were consequences for US visitors to Brazil after the decision to photograph and fingerprint foreign vistitors to the US).

ACPlayer

09-23-2004, 07:26 AM

I had not followed the Cat Stevens controversy (so many thanks for those who have tried to enlighten us with their knowledge -- for better or worse) so have little to add there.

However, I do think it is appropriate for all of us to care about whether any profiling is problematic or not. Other than any civil rights issues (and I believe that morally all people should be treated as if they have certain inalienable rights) we are hurting our trade and tourist business by making it harder for people to visit and enjoy our country.

ACPlayer

09-23-2004, 07:46 AM

From www.juancole.com (http://www.juancole.com) on Cat Stevens, Rushdi Fatwa, Martha Stewart and John Ashcroft.

I know that it is faintly ridiculous that Cat Stevens a.k.a. Yusuf Islam was deported on Wednesday from the US after the airplane he was on was diverted to Maine, on the grounds that he is a dire security threat to the country.
David Letterman in his monologue allowed darkly as how the Feds were no doubt gunning for Gordon Lightfoot next. He also wickedly observed that despite Osama Bin Laden being at large, what with Cat Stevens deported and Martha Stewart in jail, he felt a lot safer.

But I have a hard time rushing to Yusuf Islam's defense because I never forgave him for advocating the execution of Salman Rushdie in 1989. He endorsed Khomeini's "fatwa" or death edict against Rushdie for the novel, Satanic Verses. He later explained this position away by saying that he did not endorse vigilante action against Rushdie, but would rather want the verdict to be carried out by a proper court. These are weasel words, since he was saying that if Khomeini had been able to field some Revolutionary Guards in London to kidnap Rushdie and take him to Tehran, it would have been just dandy if he were then taken out and shot for having written his novel. In my view, that entire episode of the Khomeini fatwa showed how sick some forms of Muslim activism had become, and served as a foretaste of al-Qaeda's own death warrant served on a lot of other innocent people.

And, the disavowal wasn't even consistent. AP reported on March 8, 1989, that "Cat Stevens Endorses Rushdie Death Sentence Again," writing:

' Former pop singer Cat Stevens reiterated his support for the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini's death sentence against Salman Rushdie, saying the author's treatment of Islam was "as good as stabbing Moslems in the heart." . . . "It's got to be seen as a deterrent, so that other people should not commit the same mistake again," Stevens said in an interview with the television show "World Monitor," produced by The Christian Science Monitor . . Stevens, who said the novel's treatment of Islam was "as good as stabbing Moslems in the heart," suggested that Rushdie should repent writing the book. "If he manages to escape (the death sentence) he still has to face God on the day of judgment," he said. "So I would recommend to him to sincerely change his ways right now." '

At the time, Rushdie's life was in imminent danger, and Cat Stevens was skating pretty close to inciting to murder. (What else is the "deterrent" he is talking about?)

So, to steal from Bill Maher:

NEW RULES: If you advocate the execution of novelists for writing novels, you and John Ashcroft deserve one another

MMMMMM

09-23-2004, 08:07 AM

I think the term "Soup Nazi" has a great deal going for it.

Ah...Kramer....

astroglide

09-23-2004, 12:30 PM

First of all, Yussuf Islam (fka Cat Stevens) once publically called for the death of Salman Rushdie FOR WRITING A BOOK.

no he didn't. http://catstevens.com/articles/00013/index.html is the press release made immediately after the scandal. he didn't have a career or a reputation to protect by making the statement.

elwoodblues

09-23-2004, 12:41 PM

Thanks for posting the link.

The language he uses is still a little shaky, but I guess your interpretation depends on whether you give him the benefit of the doubt or not. I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt. In particular, I am referring to this:

"My only crime was, I suppose, in being honest. I stood up and expressed my belief and I am in no way apologizing for it."

Does this mean his "belief" is that Rushdie should be killed or was he saying that he was expressing a belief in Islam (in general)?

astroglide

09-23-2004, 01:07 PM

there are further statements regarding it from later dates, i figured it most appropriate to show his immediate response. as for belief, yes i take it to mean belief in islam. my whole take on the situation was that he was still new to the whole deal, struggling with his status as a 'western representative' of islam, and thought answering by the book would be most appropriate.

MMMMMM

09-23-2004, 01:22 PM

Well, Cat Stevens agreed with the death-fatwa placed on Salman Rushdie by the Ayatollah Khomeini, and stated so publicly. You may attempt to guess his motivation for doing this, but it doesn't change the fact that he publicly stated that Rushdie should be killed for writing a book.

astroglide

09-23-2004, 01:33 PM

it's the letter of the law. he didn't say "i think the guy is a piece of [censored] and i'd kill him myself", he said "it says here in the book that execution is his punishment". there are many similar ridiculous things in the christian bible.

MMMMMM

09-23-2004, 01:40 PM

"it's the letter of the law. he didn't say "i think the guy is a piece of [censored] and i'd kill him myself", he said "it says here in the book that execution is his punishment". there are many similar ridiculous things in the christian bible."

Well at what point do you take his support of that letter of the law to be a call for execution of that law? The linked source wacki provided somewhere above in this thread made it seem pretty clear that Stevens was supporting the actual application, the execution of Rushdie, not just the scriptural decree in a historical sense.

wacki

09-23-2004, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the term "Soup Nazi" has a great deal going for it.

Ah...Kramer....

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad somebody here likes the slang Nazi adjective.

BTW the "Soup Nazi".... a classic.

astroglide

09-23-2004, 02:27 PM

i'm really astounded at how unable people are to see things from his perspective or get past "islam = evil".

he is a westerner.

he was famous.

he converted to islam, which prompted media attention.

he was defaulted into the role of the islamic ambassador.

there is no way that he is going to publicly disagree with people who are his seniors in every aspect, especially when he is a relative newbie. it wasn't an opinion or an interpretation, it was a confirmation that the book says what the book says. he was in no position to say anything else in response to such a difficult question. "no comment" would be interpreted as disagreement with the ruling.

anybody that knows anything about his music or his life (both before and after conversion) doesn't doubt this, but even outside of that perspective i think it's a really simple and understandable situation.

elwoodblues

09-23-2004, 02:31 PM

I don't think it's entirely clear. He never said (in the link above) that he supported the application. He said that Islamic law is that blasphemers should be killed. He then said that Islamic law also states you shouldn't violate the local (state) law.

wacki

09-23-2004, 02:41 PM

Here's an interesting quote.

"One night I was lying back in bed," Cat Stevens once claimed, "and I saw this flying saucer shoot across the sky and stop over me. And it sucked me up into it. When it put me down, I shot up in bed. I knew it wasn't a dream. It didn't feel like a dream. It was real, I know it was real..."

[Sources: STAR MAGAZINE, 1973 (also reported in Rolling Stone, 1972); GQ, May 2003, p. 128]
http://www.anecdotage.com/index.php?aid=16115

Like I said, I think he might be CrAzY!!!

Nicky G thanks for the info. As always you are a great source of information. I don't mean to flip flop, but if the what you say about the Hamas timeline is true, then maybe Homeland Security did go a little overboard as claiming him as a threat. Regardless of his beliefs, if he hasn't done anything wrong, then he hasn't done anything wrong.

If he was an American I would have to argue for his admittance, no matter how sick I find his beliefs. It's simply the American principle that would force me to fight for Cat Stevens, and his right to believe in what he wants. But right now, I'm kind of glad he's not American.

I understand your point on international relations. That I think is a good arguement for his admittance.

This has been a very interesting thread.

astroglide

09-23-2004, 02:45 PM

what is sick about his beliefs?

wacki

09-23-2004, 02:49 PM

"Following the September 11, 2001 attacks, a list of 150 songs circulated on the Internet, purported to be from radio conglomerate Clear Channel Communications to its subsidiaries, with the recommendation that these songs be pulled from airplay (it was later revealed that the list was originally the work of a few specific station program directors, was not an official Clear Channel missive, and changed over time as it was redistributed). The Cat Stevens tunes "Peace Train" and "Morning Has Broken" were among those listed. Following the attacks, Yusef Islam emerged publicly to denounce the attacks as un-Islamic and has donated proceeds from a recently-released box set to September 11-related charities."

"During the Gulf War he raised further controversy by his comments in support of Saddam Hussein."

"In response to this criticism, Yusuf Islam has since clarified that he believes that a death sentence can only be carried out by the authority of a court in an Islamic society, and that he is opposed to anyone taking the law into their own hands by murdering Rushdie."

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/C/Cat-Stevens.htm

Looks like he might be law abiding, crazy, uncompassionate for some infidels, and caring for other infidels. Kind of an odd combination.

wacki

09-23-2004, 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
what is sick about his beliefs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just the fact that he supports killing someone because they wrote a book.

Also I think:
Chopping of a arm of a thief, or stonning an adulterer isn't right. Plenty of people go to jail and are later found to be innocent.

Larry Marshall, a professor at Northwestern University School of Law and the Director of The Center on Wrongful Convictions, believes 5 to 10% of the prisoners on death row may be innocent.

http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/tows_2000/tows_past_20000928_e.jhtml

Justice Gerald Kogan, a former Florida State Supreme Court Justice, has worked on more than 1,200 death penalty cases, as a judge, a prosecutor, and a defense attorney. During his years on the Supreme Court, 28 executions were carried out. He says he has "grave doubts" about 3 of those cases. After 40 years of experience, he believes innocent people are convicted every day.

Since the death penalty was reinstated in Illinois in 1977, 12 men have been executed. During that same period, 13 innocent men were freed from death row.

More innocent people are released from death row in Illinois than actually put to death? That isn't right.

Just my belief. Still I support people to have their own, no matter how sick they are.

astroglide

09-23-2004, 03:08 PM

i don't know what other words can be used to state this: it was a quote from the book. he was in no position to say anything else. it was not a declaration of support, it was a quote of the rules from the book.

MaxPower

09-23-2004, 03:15 PM

I understand the problem is that he was being followed by a moon shadow.

Why did they let him on the plane at all if he was on this list?

wacki

09-23-2004, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i don't know what other words can be used to state this: it was a quote from the book. he was in no position to say anything else. it was not a declaration of support, it was a quote of the rules from the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

No he supports death fatwa. He just doesn't support people breaking the law to implement it. If the man was found in Iran or Afghanistan, it sounds like he would be all for it. Read the links.

elwoodblues

09-23-2004, 03:55 PM

I don't think that's entirely clear. That's certainly one reading of what he said. It isn't the only one.

astroglide

09-23-2004, 03:55 PM

he supports islam, and islam supports fatwa. you could extrapolate this in the exact same manner to say that any christian supports animal sacrifice: http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/lev1.html

Glenn

09-23-2004, 04:13 PM

What people here are trying to say, and what I also believe, is that when someone asks you if it's ok to kill someone for writing a book, there is only one right answer. That answer is "No." Not, "the prophet says:" or "Islamic Law says:". It doesn't matter what his religion says. He still has the duty to know the difference between right and wrong, and still is accountable for what he says if he chooses to speak publicly about it. Maybe he didn't give outright support to it, but for simple moral questions, look to Stan from South Park, who would give the proper reply "the Fatwa is gay".

Although I don't think flights should be grounded because Stevens is on them. Our "leaders" should have to pay out of pocket to cover the Airline's expenses for that.

astroglide

09-23-2004, 04:21 PM

that's not what everybody is trying to say here, certainly no wacki. he honestly believes he personally supported (supports?) it.

if he had spoken out against it he would be a pariah in the islam community and very possibly could have ended up with a target on his head (by extremists) for supporting somebody in public who was clearly guilty of an executable offense. to say anything more or less than what he said would have simply been dumb.

it is as black and white as jerry falwell claiming in public that satanists go to heaven. it is the opposite of what the book says.

Abednego

09-23-2004, 05:45 PM

I think you make a valid point

wacki

09-23-2004, 05:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]

if he had spoken out against it he would be a pariah in the islam community and very possibly could have ended up with a target on his head (by extremists) for supporting somebody in public who was clearly guilty of an executable offense. to say anything more or less than what he said would have simply been dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a solid point. I could see Cat Stevens being affraid to speak out against it. His hands may well be tied. I guess I would have to hear a recording of him talking to really make a judgement of what his intent is.

Regardless of his belief, I don't think there is any concrete proof that he has done anything really wrong.

Wow, flip flop flip flop, my opinion has been all over the place. And now, I officially don't have an opinion. I think I just pulled a Kerry!

Lol, just joking. I'm sorry to all the Kerry fans, but I just couldn't resist. I'll make some Bush jokes later. I've got plenty.

ACPlayer

09-23-2004, 06:05 PM

This subthread about Cat and Islam and whether he was spporting the killing or the Islamic principle clearly and convincingly demonstrates that

Subjourning your intellect to any religion is stupid.

Abednego

09-23-2004, 06:19 PM

Uh .... no I don't think so ..... you see, Christ's death was the ultimate sacrifice making the shedding of animal blodd for the forgiveness of sins inoperative. His was the perfect sacrifice. Good News!

astroglide

09-23-2004, 06:52 PM

whatever you say, there are zillions of such ridiculous things in the bible: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

MMMMMM

09-23-2004, 08:05 PM

astro, I don't think it is the same thing:

1) Supporting the killing of a person is different than supporting the killing of an animal

2) It is absurd and wrong to kill people for blasphemy in this day and age

3) Christianity does not encourage animal sacrifice--you are thinking of the OLD Testament. Old Judaism encouraged animal sacrifice--Jesus did not.

4) Even the most extreme Christian Fundamentalists today do not advocate execution as a punishment for blasphemy. It's backwards, it's sick, and it's 100% out of place in this day and age. Furthermore it is 100% intolerant of other religions, and such absolute religious intolerance is simply unworkable in today's world.

5) I've mentioned it before, but remember when Jerry Falwell said Mohammed was a terrorist? A major Arab imam's response was to sentence Falwell to death for blasphemy. Now you can see how one-sided this religion of Islam is. Falwell is a pretty extreme fundamentalist Christian, but even he would never dream of sentencing a Muslim to death for blasphemy. But that is par for the course for clerics of even today's Islam. Can this religion ever co-exist with other religions without demanding dominance and special privilege? So far it hasn't.