Annie Duke--The JJ Hand

[3rdEye]

Hey Annie,

What was your thought process when you folded JJ vs. Daniel's 88 on that hand? I heard you say a lot of hands could have been a favorite against you even if you had the best hand after the flop. Did you think Daniel might have had something like AQ or AK with a club? After seeing the hand on TV, what did you think about Daniel's play?

I found this hand very interesting--particularly Daniel's push on the flop--so I'm interested to hear what you thought about it. I think Daniel's push screamed of either: 1) a semi-bluff; or 2) an overbet designed to look like a bluff; although I'm not sure what range of inferior hands he could have put you on in the hopes that you would call.

[Annie Duke]

There is a lot of history to that fold. Daniel in the past really likes to push in on me with the nuts because he thinks I am a calling station. I know that about him and I felt like he really thought he had the best hand there. His comments after were that he was sure he had the best hand, in fact, so my read there was right.

He was my thought process: Daniel either had me killed or may very well had a hand like two overs with a flush draw--those are yucky hands for me to be against iwth two red jacks. Even the hand he hand wasn't a huge dog to me.

So given the past history combined with the range of hands I thought he would push with and the fact that it did not feel like a bluff I folded. Obviously, if I knew he had 88 I would have called.

Annie

[3rdEye]

Thanks for your response, Annie. I am probably incapable of making that fold, but in the context you provided, it makes good sense.

[Daliman]

Interesting response that you read him for huge, given that he felt he was...just shows the extra levels of thinking beyond "BUT I HAVE TWO JACKS" that can go into even an improper fold.

Good job overall Annie.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for your response, Annie. I am probably incapable of making that fold, but in the context you provided, it makes good sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be condescending, but I really don't find JJ too hard to fold when a solid player goes all in early on.

[sbkid]

I see this discussion as similar to Matasow (sp?) versus Raymer...

Since Annie commented in that hand Matasow could not call because of the many hands he was possibly against, I believe she folded due to this same mentality.

Remember Daniel N. raised before the flop then went all-in with an almost 50% edge (I know it was a little less than this but for heads-up purposes that is close). So I believe that Annie layed down a good hand to wait for a better edge to push on.

She could have lost the whole tourney here; I think I would have called and lost here (i.e. about 50% of the time, which my bankroll couldn't afford if it were a high-limit game), but that is why she is a pro and I'm posting about here.

[MrGo]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, if I knew he had 88 I would have called.

Annie

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't own those 'see-through' glasses Annie? I'll have to borrow them you sometime - they are great! lol

[Beavis68]

Annie,

I actually like your fold with JJ, it just shows you can fold the best when you are unsure and still win a tournament.

The hand I am really curious about was the 10-10 hand. I believe Daniel was UTG or UTG+1, and opened for a good sum (30-35k?) you put him all-in for 135K or so? Man, this made me cringe as soon as I saw it. There were still 7-8 people left to act behind you, and putting in that much money with 10-10 to target someone is such an early position seems like a very vulnerable play. It seems like every time I target a play at a specific player with others in the hand, I run into trouble.

What is your take?

See ya on UB!

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, if I knew he had 88 I would have called.

Annie

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though you were only like 56/44 to win the hand? I mean, clearly you were ahead, but this begs the question: are you willing to risk all/most of your chips in a tournament on such a small edge? Here's an example I'd like you to answer, if possible: First hand of the WSOP. You are in the BB with Black Queens. It's folded to the SB who raises allin. You have played with the SB many times before, and you are 100% sure that such a massive overbet is AK (he likes to make sure he sees all 5 cards with them). Do you call?

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, if I knew he had 88 I would have called.

Annie

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though you were only like 56/44 to win the hand? I mean, clearly you were ahead, but this begs the question: are you willing to risk all/most of your chips in a tournament on such a small edge? Here's an example I'd like you to answer, if possible: First hand of the WSOP. You are in the BB with Black Queens. It's folded to the SB who raises allin. You have played with the SB many times before, and you are 100% sure that such a massive overbet is AK (he likes to make sure he sees all 5 cards with them). Do you call?

[/ QUOTE ]

First hand of the WSOP is a completely different animal than a winner-take-all single table tournament against 9 of the best players in the world. Against the players in the TOC, I think most people (read: not Phil Hellmuth) would take the overlay on the wrong side of a coinflip when there is enough in the pot to justify it. 2nd place pays the same as 10th place so you have no incentive to claw your way up one or two places.

[Olde drunk]

Regardless of all the other considerations, if you can not or are not comfortable with a given hand or situation, LAY IT DOWN. Once you are uneasy you can not make the best decision. It is only one battle within the war.

I love the way Annie set Phil up with her dimpled comments. Go girl!

peace,

[3rdEye]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for your response, Annie. I am probably incapable of making that fold, but in the context you provided, it makes good sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be condescending, but I really don't find JJ too hard to fold when a solid player goes all in early on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that in most such situations, JJ is probably beat. I would often fold it preflop against a solid player who is showing strength, but if an A, K, or Q doesn't hit the board and I was the preflop aggressor, it's going to be hard for *me* to get away from it, especially in a winner-take-all structure such as the TOC. That's why you're a better NLHE player than I am. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Greg (FossilMan)]

If Annie folded KNOWING she was a 56:44 favorite to win the pot, AND when getting much more than even money on the call, I'd lose all respect for her. Or for any player that made such a decision in winner-take-all format. Even in a tourney paying multiple places such a fold would almost never be correct.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[durron597]

Well, in a winner take all freezeout format, with little dead money in the pot - I know that's not what you just said - is it right to take a 56/44 for all your chips, in your opinion?

Thanks for the reply Greg by the way.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, in a winner take all freezeout format, with little dead money in the pot - I know that's not what you just said - is it right to take a 56/44 for all your chips, in your opinion?

Thanks for the reply Greg by the way.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's what Raymer just said! Of course you want to be 56/44 for all your money in a tournament where people are on your level. You can win by finding ways to be 56/44 for all your chips. I seriously doubt anyone can pass up 56/44 against that field. (well, Phil would, but he's probably wrong)

However, it's a horrible idea to think that you should have called the all in from Negreanu where you are AT BEST a 56/44 favorite, when you could be drawing near dead to his made flush.

Same thing that makes you fold 44 when someone goes all in. At best, you're a small favorite, where there is a strong possibility you are a big dog.

[Annie Duke]

The TT hand was the most interesting hand of the tournament. I was getting 3 to 1 on the pot for a call. It took me a very very long time to fold because of the large pot odds. If Greg is capable of having AK there it is a terrible fold. But I felt very strongly that I was 4 1/2 to one there. It took a long time to convince myself of my read because the pot was so damn big.

I really didn't think Greg would move in there so quickly with AK. I look totally pot committed and I think he would have folded that hand. I felt very stronly that I was against AA, KK or maybe QQ. And in the end I had the right read. Thanks god cause I would have killed myself if he had AK there when I saw the hand lol.

Annie

[Beavis68]

Thanks for the response Annie.

Do you think that your original raise was too big given your position and chip stack as you look back on the hand now? From reading TJ's book, that was just something that set off alarms when I you eyeing Daniel's stack, but I have very little real expirience and would like to know if a pro thinks my take was correct (regardless of the outcome of thehand).

I was really afraid that Annie would go on tilt after having to make those two big laydowns so early in the game after putting so much money in the pot. I think the fact she was able to keep playing her A-game is a testament to her skill.


The only thing that could have topped those folds was if Chip could have gotten away from his KK. I think something similar happened to Jen Harmon in the WPT ladies event - she said "oh this smells like aces" but still made the call. Man, I hate that feeling.

[curtains]

I believe that it's best to raise to 80-95k with the TT as opposed to 135k. They both mean the same thing to Daniel and almost surely to everyone else at the table. Meanwhile you save 40k when someone else goes allin and you read them for a big hand. I don't see any real advantage to raising to 135k over 90k.
Anyone agree?

[donny5k]

It's possible someone (Greg imparticular) could make a move with AKs if she only raised to 90k. With 135k she isolates herself from any hand but AA, KK, or QQ almost certainly. You'll only run into one of those hands a tiny percentage of the time, small enough to make the 40k difference almost negligible in the long run.

[Apocalypse]

damn mr. fossilman, i did not know this...

I've always been a limitplayer so far, and have recently taken up NL mostly because its such helluv fun to do /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

But please explain why its so bad (in regular tourney format) to pass up on such a hand in that knowledge? I've been in that situation a couple of times, and ive folded a couple of times when the bet more or less matched my stacksize (or would cripple me at least) in the thought of :"ill get better chances later on than to risk this on a simple coinflip even though potodds gimme say 1.2:1 and im going in a favorite")

In that respect, i found the second 98o hand you played against annie somewhat surprising. The first one gave you proper odds (i didn't calculate, but i saw you doing the math so i figured they were right /images/graemlins/smirk.gif ) but in that case you weren't exactly risking a large portion of your stack. The second 98o seemed to take half your stack i believe(?), and i thought well maybe you should pass up here waiting for stronger opportunities than this one.

Like i said, ive just started out on NL, and i haven't read any books so far concerning nolimit, so these are just thoughts on my own. I mean, aren't these factors to be taken into account with in No-Limit?

Like a zillion people probably must have done, congrats on your title. I love seeing you play poker, and i loved you as a player who showed lots of class throughout