Doyle, what the HELL was that?!??!

[Easy E]

Who do you think you're playing with? And in a tournament?

How many chips was that all-in, anyone?

Of course, good quote "I love Phil, but he's aggrivatin'"

at least half of that statement was true

[Daliman]

I hate to say it, but Doyle, IMVHO, Doyle has played terribly in every TV appearance but 2004 WSOP main event.

[durron597]

Didn't Doyle win Legends of Poker?

[srblan]

Yup, he came from behind to beat Lee Watkinson...

[srblan]

He probably figured that he'd take a shot to build a big stack, and if he missed, then he can go make money at the Bellagio...

[blendedsuit]

sad to say, but old, tired, and failing health, he cant feel 100% all the time

[KanigawaCards7]

Its just a sad thing to watch doyle lose anytime, like the time PaulBunyan lost to the machine in tree chopping. Its never fun to watch a legend lose. And it especially wasnt fun to see the old man make a thoughtless play like that.

[snowlarbear]

anyone know why he had a crutch?

[B1GF1SHY]

He's had a crutch for awhile, and I think it has something to do with helping him walk.

[River2Pair]

Thoughtless? There are a lot of hands Howard folds there. Doyle just got unlucky to run into a hand. Sure it was a one-dimensional play, but what can you do with that stack?

I've played a few SNGs in my day, and I'm sure there were times where I had 2BB's and pushed in SB when it folds to me, and somehow sucked out and ended up coming back to win. Unfortunately, online you have to look at your cards.

When it gets down to not enough chips to fold, and not enough chips to get anyone else to fold, all you can do is throw 'em in and hope for the best.

How people can come here and say something as bold as Doyle Brunson made a thoughtless play is just beyond me.

[Deorum]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it has something to do with helping him walk.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO WAY!

[Kopefire]

I have a feeling that Doyle saw he was short stacked, saw the way the blinds were progressing, and decided he really had had enough of the side-show and wanted to go home.

[3rdEye]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it has something to do with helping him walk.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO WAY!

[/ QUOTE ]

Post of the year.

[sbkid]

I think Doyle was one of the only players that played like he wrote his book. He was agressive and made other players think about their decisions (i.e. Helmuth (sp?) -- even though he beat out Doyle doesn't mean Doyle didn't put him to the test in the blinds many times...)

I bought T.J's book and he didn't even follow his own advice against the best players in the world in the Poker Superstars Invitational. He DID RAISE with pocket fives from early position (he suggests not to in his book), along with other plays that made me question his otherwise horrible book (horrible since he didn't follow his own advice against good players, which he talks about in his book many times).

I admire Doyle for his aggressiveness -- if you don't have a hand that you can call with then you must fold. I for one would not want to play a game againsyt Doyle.

Who here can say they would?

[Easy E]

Thoughtless? There are a lot of hands Howard folds there. Doyle just got unlucky to run into a hand. Sure it was a one-dimensional play, but what can you do with that stack?
With an 83?? I think I would have gone to at LEAST the next hand- he wasn't in a blind if I remember correctly.
And to do it without looking??

I've played a few SNGs in my day, and I'm sure there were times where I had 2BB's
How much did Doyle have?

[b]How people can come here and say something as bold as Doyle Brunson made a thoughtless play is just beyond me.

[/ QUOTE ]
ummmm.... because it was?

[rdu $teve]

The crutch is for his bad knee. He blew it out back in the 50s, the summer before he was supposed to start playing basketball with the Lakers.

While I understand going all-in when blinds are coming around on your short stack, I do not understand doing it blind. I at least wait for a hand thats 50% or better; I'll even get into the blind if I need to.

I think his all-in had more to do with being tired and worn down.

[River2Pair]

[ QUOTE ]

With an 83?? I think I would have gone to at LEAST the next hand- he wasn't in a blind if I remember correctly.


[/ QUOTE ]

It looked to me like it was folded to Doyle in SB, he pushed dark and Howard called him in BB.

[betgo]

They didn't show what the ratio of Doyle's stack to the blinds were. If his stack was less than four times the blinds, it would probably be correct to push with anything. You have to consider pot odds and the chance the BB might fold.

[Beavis68]

1. This is a winner take all event.

2. Most poker hands run about 2:1 in odds - you could say that doubling up in chips was worth the risk since it was pretty likely they would be heads-up.

You have to read some of TJ's writings to understand how these guys think. All he really cared about was getting heads-up, and having live cards.

Doyle had a knee injury since his early days, that ended his pro basketball career.

[bobby rooney]

If you are going to try to steal with any two, it's almost better not to know. Doyle is a short stack with an opportunity to play a heads up pot. The blinds and antes make up for pot odds if he gets called, and there are a lot of hands Howard will fold. You will also see players do this when they are in the BB and a short stack has raised allin with everyone else folding. If the odds are there, usually after the antes have kicked in, they will call with any two.

[theBruiser500]

EasyE, I see nothign wrong with his all in play, not necessarily anyway... He was on the button and shortstacked and 1st place is the only place that gets any money. Basically what I think he did is he decided that he will pick up the blinds with that bet enough of the time to justify his raise with any two cards, in which case, obviously his 2 cards don't matter.

Also, how can all of you guys say that Brunson is old and plays badly. There was a whole segment in the show where everyone said how incredible it was that Brunson is still playing so well and how he's at the top of his game now. So ALL OF YOU MORONS SHOULD SHUT UP.

[JasonDB]

Wonder if Howard was aware that Doyle had not looked at his cards? I wasn't watching the hand that closely so I could not tell.

[bobby rooney]

Maybe, Howard is pretty damn observant. I think if you are going to do this (push with any two) you should at least pretend to look so that you aren't getting your opponent to call with more hands, since you are probably rooting for a fold.

[J.R.]

I don't think doyle had much more than 4 times the bb, so I think his push was fine, especially given the payout structure of the event.

[mnoesound]

I dont know any of those players but, I am pretty confident in saying that was probably not the first time Doyle has done that and probably has successfully taken down many small pots with that play. This just so happened to be on T.V. and just so happened to run into a call-able hand.
Next time I'm playing for 2 mil. (which will probably never happen) I'm pushing blind at least twice!!!

[Noo Yawk]

Think of it this way:

-You're 71 with nothing to prove.

-You're not nearly as impressed with the money as some of your opponents.

-You've been there for what seems like a million hours.You're 71 and tired.

-Phil is adding to your time by posing for the cameras every time it's his turn.

-You're on the short stack.

-You're 71, tired, on the shortstack, agrrevated as hell by Phil Hellmuth, nothing left to prove and 2 million comes and goes to you. PUSH WITHOUT LOOKING!! God bless him!

[Wayfare]

Probably not that much. First off, did you see his house? Second off, he plays in games where you can make a lot more. Most importantly though, he was shortstacked in a tourney where ONLY FIRST PRIZE GETS MONEY.

It's not worth his time to eek it out or pay 1/8 his stack to sit around and wait for a hand. If he has 5x bb, he is increasing his stack by 20% if lederer folds. I would say that lederer folds 80% of the time. Sometimes he plays the hand out and wins, and plays for real again. Sometimes he goes and gets a drink and takes a nap.

You do the math.

[mnoesound]

Amen Noo Yawk!!!!

[eyekast]

exactly and they even showed a clip of the games where chip, doyle and others play where they have million dollar winners every night.

[Easy E]

EasyE, I see nothign wrong with his all in play, not necessarily anyway...
If he decides to go in, fine, KNOWING he's going to get called by just about anything. but to do it BLIND? 83o is the hand to do it with? No way.

he was on the button and shortstacked and 1st place is the only place that gets any money. Basically what I think he did is he decided that he will pick up the blinds with that bet enough of the time to justify his raise with any two cards, in which case, obviously his 2 cards don't matter.

But they DO matter, for two reasons:

1) Anyone in the blinds is going to call him with just about anything, given his reported puny stack. You want to chance it with a NO LOOK hand?

2) If he was on the button, he had 2-3 hands at least before the blinds hit. NOT LOOKING at his cards and going all-in is the best decision here? What did he have, one chip?

I STILL "call BS"

Also, how can all of you guys say that Brunson is old and plays badly. There was a whole segment in the show where everyone said how incredible it was that Brunson is still playing so well and how he's at the top of his game now. So ALL OF YOU MORONS SHOULD SHUT UP.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Easy E]

But how crippled was his stack again?

If he was actually on the button, I can't see where this play makes any sense. He KNOWS he's getting called much more often than usual, if his stack was as small as they said it was.

[Easy E]

Passing on a chance to get even a slightly better hand in order to push in the dark? Sorry, I can't buy it, even if the math is there.

[Easy E]

Are you saying that, if he had LOOKED, he would have pushed... AND that would have been a good decision with 83, almost KNOWING that the blinds would have to have 72's themselves NOT to call?

[betgo]

This was typical Doyle Brunson play, like you read in his book, although his book only dealt with deep money cash games.

If you are in the small blind with as many chips as are in the pot, if it is passed to you, you have to push, because you are getting 2-1 pot odds, and on average you are less than a 2-1 underdog even with 8-3. As the ratio of your stack to the blinds increases, your pot odds decline, but the chances your opponent will fold increases. Pushing with 8-3 is extreme, but if either blind's stack is less than 5 times the pot, it is EV+ to push with any decent hand.

When Doyle Brunson makes a play that seems crazy, rather than saying "that Doyle must be senile", we should look at what we can learn from his play.

"Those oft are strategems which errors seem nor is it Homer nods but we who dream." -- Alexander Pope "Essay on Criticism"

[theBruiser500]

"but if either blind's stack is less than 5 times the pot, it is EV+ to push with any decent hand."

How does this matter, I kind of follow your reasoning but not completely yet...

[frank_iii]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably not that much. First off, did you see his house? Second off, he plays in games where you can make a lot more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, where can he make more than $2 million for fewer than 10 hours of work? I think you underestimate how much he wanted to win the money. It seems like all the players interviewed commented on how they wanted the $2 million.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
"but if either blind's stack is less than 5 times the pot, it is EV+ to push with any decent hand."

How does this matter, I kind of follow your reasoning but not completely yet...

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, obviously none of you play SNG's. There are two horrible things you can do in SNG's, throw away a bunch of your chips with a hand you shouldn't have, and get blinded out.

If Brunson has only 4x BB, there is a huge difference between that and having 15x BB. If you have 4x BB after posting SB, you simply can't wait for great spots to go up again. If 6 more hands are dealt, you're going to lose a 1/4 of your chips, which is way too much. And no one has opened the pot yet, which means that everyone else has crap. If you decide to call all in (essentially) when someone raises with a marginally better hand, not only can you not get them to fold, also you are going to be facing better hands than what Howard would call with.

You need to be aggresive and steal. This is one of those semi-bluff plays.

Let's say Howard lays down 70% of his hands here.
So, 70% of the time, you pick up 1.5x BB, the SB you would have lost by folding, and the BB of Howard's.
30% of the time, you have a 75% chance (to be on the safe side) of losing this pot. So, 23% of the time, you lose that pot, and lose 4x BB. 7% of the time, you pick up 3.5x (4xBB - SB), plus the SB and BB, for 6xBB.

Losing when called: 23% * - 4x BB = -.92 BB
Winning when called: 7% * 6x BB = .42 BB
Getting Howard to lay down: 70% * 1.5 BB = 1.05 BB
Total EV of play = .55 BB.

This play is just your standard raise to try and take the blinds, except you're so shortstacked, you can't raise that much without going in. Remember, there's not much difference between 72o, and J3o, you're still going to get called by 2 overs.