3 hands, 3 checks, 3 mistakes? Part 1

[Brian]

Live 15/30 at the Canterbury. Table is playing pretty loose, with 3-5 people taking each Flop usually for 2 bets each. I'm dealt QJo in the CO. EP old man limps in. He's cold-called a couple of raises but isn't playing as loose as everyone else, but I wouldn't say he's a TOM either. I don't think I've seen a single one of his hands so far. It's folded to me and I limp. The Button, a solid player, raises. When I say solid, I mean that he doesn't appear to be in many hands, but is playing aggressively when he's in one. He hasn't shown down too many hands but I'd imagine he'd raise a number of hands from the Button with 2 limpers here. One of the blinds call, I don't remember which one. 4 to the Flop, 4.5bb.

Flop: AT8r.

Checked to me and I check.

-Brian

[EDIT]: Over-emphasized Button's aggression. He isn't super-aggressive after the Flop, probably about a typical aggression level of a 15/30 player.

[mikeyvegas]

No button stealing raise pf from the CO? OK, i guess that's cool. If by checking the flop, you're really going for the old check raise the field with the double gutter nut str8 draw then I'm down.

[J.R.]

Unless the button is weak and would fold an underpair/undercards to your flop bet (which I think is unlikely), a bet doesn't serve much of a purpose here as it does not rate to clean-up your outs very much and probably drives out the other players if the button raises, something you don't really want/need to do with a double belly buster.

The looser the button would raise preflop, and the weaker he plays postflop, the more inclined I am to bet this flop. I would raise this preflop if I chose to play.

[Trix]

I would raise preflop, especially when the guy behind is decent.
Check the flop and CR if old guy calls, the pot will look protected to the decent player. If the old guy folds, then just take the passive route.

Your draw is very well hidden as the board looks very uncord and even if you cant get rid of the old guy it may buy you some more outs with position.

[MoreWineII]

3 checks doesn't sound promising. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Brian]

Hi J.R.,

I agree. I may have taken the worst route possible with limping, actually, considering the player on the Button and the old man in EP. I had been playing way too long and was in auto-pilot, and that is my auto-pilot move in online games. Playing KTo and QJo in the CO after an EP limper is a weak point for me, and I'd probably be best off folding them. I feel like I want to raise, but I talk myself out of it saying EP could have me dominated and it won't help me to buy the Button because most online players will either fold their hand no matter how many bets before them or call no matter how many bets before them. So if EP could have me dominated then shouldn't I just fold? Wait, no, I'm playing way too tight, I'll just limp and see how it goes. That's my thought process, and I haven't come up with a way out of that loop yet. I'll try raising. Believe me, that's what I want to do. /images/graemlins/cool.gif I actually throw up in my mouth when EP shows his KJo, though, and that's -EV I think.

-Brian

[mikeyvegas]

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I actually throw up in my mouth ... and that's -EV I think.

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Yeah, I find when I have vomit breath I'm always in a -EV situation.

[Brian]

[ QUOTE ]
Check the flop and CR if old guy calls, the pot will look protected to the decent player.

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Freakin' brilliant. I never even thought of that. I'll go ahead and wrap this thread up, then, because that seems like the best route to take.

Button checked the Flop as well. I was planning on check-raising the field, because I didn't think that there was any way the Button would check. Once he did, though, I started to wonder if betting would have folded out a hand like KQ, or maybe even KK. I think check-raising will often get the best of both worlds, though, as I think with this Flop it will still often get rid of KK/KQ/JJ/99 type hands, and it will never screw me in the butt when he has AK and my bet and his raise just shut out the rest of the field.

For those who are curious, the Turn was a King. It was checked to old man who bet, I raised, everyone else folded, and old man called. River was a Jack, and I thankfully chopped with his KQ? Why thankfully? Because on the River, he bet, I raised, he 3-bet, I 4-bet, and I thought he just called my 4-bet so I flipped 'em up. He had in fact 5-bet, though, and my heart skipped a beat wondering if my hand would be mucked. Nothing was said though, and we took our money back.

-Brian

[Nate tha' Great]

Yeah, I was going to say something about the preflop limp so I'm glad to see that some others did. This situation actually doesn't come up too frequently since a UTG limp tends to induce a daisy chain of limps or an isolation raise long before it gets to the Cutoff spot.

This is an especially easy raise in a live game, where players will be aware of your tightness and your folding equity will be a little bit greater. I suspect that you would make money with your raise even if you knew that UTG had KJo because you have position, the dead money from the blinds, and are pretty likely to induce a fold if he misses the flop.

Overlimping just flags that you have a weak hand and invites the Button to raise with just about anything playable, putting you in a very difficult position after the flop. If there are two limpers in front of you, then limping becomes a more viable option because your hand is a bit better protected from a light Button raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Hi J.R.,

I agree. I may have taken the worst route possible with limping, actually, considering the player on the Button and the old man in EP. I had been playing way too long and was in auto-pilot, and that is my auto-pilot move in online games. Playing KTo and QJo in the CO after an EP limper is a weak point for me, and I'd probably be best off folding them. I feel like I want to raise, but I talk myself out of it saying EP could have me dominated and it won't help me to buy the Button because most online players will either fold their hand no matter how many bets before them or call no matter how many bets before them. So if EP could have me dominated then shouldn't I just fold? Wait, no, I'm playing way too tight, I'll just limp and see how it goes. That's my thought process, and I haven't come up with a way out of that loop yet. I'll try raising. Believe me, that's what I want to do. /images/graemlins/cool.gif I actually throw up in my mouth when EP shows his KJo, though, and that's -EV I think.

-Brian

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