Trapped guy sucks out

[gyndok]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (6 handed)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG (t1415)
MP (t1255)
<font color="C00000">GYNDOK (t1640)</font>
Button (t4767)
SB (t3148)
<font color="C00000">BB (t1275)</font>

Preflop: GYNDOK is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises to t60</font>, MP folds, <font color="CC3333">GYNDOK raises to t180</font>, Button folds, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">BB raises to t450</font>, UTG folds, GYNDOK calls t270.

Flop: (t975) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets t825 (All-In)</font>, GYNDOK calls t825.

Turn: (t2625) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t2625) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2625

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB has Tc Kd (three of a kind, kings).
GYNDOK has Ah Ac (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: BB wins t2625. </font>

Any comments?

[Bluff Daddy]

I would have reraised bb all in preflop, either way he made a terrible play and got very lucky.

[tallstack]

I would also have gone all-in pre-flop after his t450 raise. The reason being that there is no point in concealing your strength when everyone has started swinging already. He will very likely call your PF all-in so why not get them in there. The call is not that bad though, you are a 4:1 or better favorite over any hand here and it is already HU, so you aren't taking much of a risk slowplaying here. I would not slowplay the flop, though (unless it gave me a monster).

IMO, it doesn't really matter how it was played in this instance, because all the chips were going in anyways.

Dave S

[durron597]

I would like to agree with the other posters that the way to play this hand is to push over his reraise.

[gyndok]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to agree with the other posters that the way to play this hand is to push over his reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

He might lay down JJ TT or AQ here. (I doubt it though..) In retrospect maybe he would have layed down the KT, but that is not the right way to analyze the hand.

[EnderW27]

Anyone who comes over the top of two raisers with KTo will NEVER lay down JJ or TT.

[durron597]

The correct way to analyse this hand is: YOU HAVE AA. YOU WANT TO GET THE CHIPS IN. This guy has just come over the top of two preflop raisers. He is likelier to go allin now than he is when he misses the flop. If he hits the flop, you are likely in trouble (say he "set"s up a pair). Say he had QQ on this board. He probably won't go allin, but if you had gotten the chips in preflop he would have.

There are very few reasons not to reraise with AA at low buyins. At higher buyins when the players are more thinking, then it's often worth it to try and trap, but at this level, just get the chips in. They will a call a lot more than they should, especially with this preflop action.

[ddubois]

I've been wondering about the EV of trapping lately. Let's say you have some holding you strongly feel is a favorite over your opponent, and you have to decide between actions that induce him to fold, versus actions that induce him to put chips in and pot commit himself.

First, I'll run some examples. Let's say you have 500 in pot and a 3:1 edge, he has 1000 in his stack and 1000 in your stack. If you can get him to fold right now, that's +500EV. If you can induce him to go all-in, you will lose 1000 25% of the time, and win 1500 75% of the time. That's +875 EV. Let's change the stacks, you have 200, and he has 200. Trapping now becomes -50+525=+475EV. So here, trapping is actually negative EV relative to pushing him out. Even though you have a 3:1 advantage, you would rather he fold -- checking to him and hoping he bluffs at the pot, thus committing himself, is a bad play.

Now let's change the odds. Let's say you have KcJc against KsTs, on a Jh2s9s board, making you a tiny favorite. 500 in the pot, you have 1000, he has 1000. The EV of pushing (if he will fold 100% of the time) is still +500EV. The EV of check-raising him all-in, a move that necessarily and purposefully reduces your fold equity, varies based on how often he will fold. If he never folds, the EV is -460+795=+335EV.

Thus, to generalize, trapping with a small advantage is awful. Also, trapping with a small stack-to-pot ratio is awful.

But back to your post... In your case everything is very different, because if that flop comes up 26J, you don't get paid squat, and if the flop comes up 6TT (FYI, he's only going to flop 2pair/trips like one in 20 times), you are very screwed. I think re-raising pre-flop is the right play because anyone that 3-bets one-third of their stack with KTo is probably not folding.

To continue along the vein I was considering before though....

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Ah 1473465 86.05 232347 13.57 6492 0.38 0.862
Tc Kd 232347 13.57 1473465 86.05 6492 0.38 0.138

pokenum -h ah ac - tc kd -- js ks 2h
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Ks Js 2h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Ah 796 80.40 194 19.60 0 0.00 0.804
Tc Kd 194 19.60 796 80.40 0 0.00 0.196

You lost very little of your edge going from pre-flop to post flop. Because he acted first you didn't have much control, but let's look at if you would prefer he folds that flop: +975EV folding, versus -165+1440=+1275EV all-in. So merely as an FYI for the future, had you had the opportunity to act first here, I should conclude that if you somehow knew your opponent had TP and not a flush draw, then trapping on the flop, presumably by check-raising him all-in, would have been superior to leading out in an effort to push him off the pot.

[Gramps]

Even without the results, the bad beat D.A. has enough evidence to take this case before a jury.

Once someone reraises you 1/3 of their stack like that, come over the top for all your chips. No reason to give them a free flop, and they're going to call you &gt;90% of the time - and a lot of those hands that would call your all-in PF might fold if they don't like the flop. No reason to give your opponent 3 free cards before making them decide if they want to put the rest of their chips in.

[gyndok]

[ QUOTE ]
Even without the results, the bad beat D.A. has enough evidence to take this case before a jury.

Once someone reraises you 1/3 of their stack like that, come over the top for all your chips. No reason to give them a free flop, and they're going to call you &gt;90% of the time - and a lot of those hands that would call your all-in PF might fold if they don't like the flop. No reason to give your opponent 3 free cards before making them decide if they want to put the rest of their chips in.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for the insight. Good rule of thumb. Very few flops will come that will keep me from getting all my chips in, so I guess I should get them in before the flop.. The only thing you worry about by pushing preflop is that you wont get full value from hands you dominate when the raiser folds. I appreciate everyone who has weighed in on my post. I am learning alot here...

[patrick dicaprio]

yet another bad beat post?

there is no reason not to go all in preflop here so just do it and dont try to outthink yourself.

Pat

[gyndok]

[ QUOTE ]
yet another bad beat post?

there is no reason not to go all in preflop here so just do it and dont try to outthink yourself.

Pat

[/ QUOTE ]


OK I TOOK YOUR ADVICE!!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed)

BB (t12709)
UTG (t18010)
UTG+1 (t3640)
MP1 (t22280)
MP2 (t5815)
MP3 (t7464)
CO (t17792)
GYNDOK (t2635)
SB (t3942)

Preflop: GYNDOK is Button with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">GYNDOK raises to t2610</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB raises to t3917</font>, BB folds.

Flop: (t6702) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t6702) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

River: (t6702) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t6702

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB has Js Jh (full house, jacks full of tens).
GYNDOK has Ac As (two pair, aces and tens).
Outcome: SB wins t6702. </font>

[Manimal]

I think you completely misinterpreted the advice given to you. There's a big difference between going all-in after the action described in the earlier hand, and going all-in when it's folded to you on the button.

That said, why this last post? Raising to 3x the blinds is greater than 1/3 of your stack, so you have to push. You got called by a 4-1 dog, and you're acting like the advice is bad? You're WAY too results oriented if you're upset that you got called by JJ when you held AA.

[gyndok]

sorry you misintepreted my post.. Your advice was right. Dont take offense. I just took yet another bad beat with AA and thought I would share it with everyone. I am repeatedly unlucky in these spots /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[rachelwxm]

nice post. I agree I would only slow play if opponent has large stack relative to pot size and I believe I have commanding lead.