For all you David Williams Haters: [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Ghazban

09-21-2004, 12:58 PM

Just because people criticized a few specific hands in the televised portion of the main event doesn't mean everybody here thinks he's a total hack who can't play poker. Everybody makes bad plays from time to time; fortunately, most of us don't have TV cameras hovering when we make them. I still think he played the 55 horribly but by no means does that imply that I think he's a horrible poker player. Frankly, I haven't seen enough of his play to say anything one way or the other. If I had to say anything, I'd guess he must at least be pretty good to have the success he's had but, beyond that, I won't make any kind of general "he's great" or "he sucks" comments because I don't have enough information.

slickpoppa

09-21-2004, 01:04 PM

I'm not saying that everyone who criticized his play thinks he is a complete hack. Nevertheless, there were people in some of the threads about his plays who were saying things along the lines of: "How the hell did this guy get to the final table. He can't play for sh*t."
I'm just trying to show some evidence that he might not be as bad as the ESPN coverage made him out to be.

Desdia72

09-21-2004, 01:12 PM

hope David wins, although i doubt it. if David does'nt win, i'm pulling for Phil.

Jwasnock

09-21-2004, 01:41 PM

Josh Arieh is at it again in 7th place...

Unfortunately, I think we'll be seeing more of Josh Arieh. For as much of an A-hole as he came off at the WSOP, I have to admit, I was very impressed by his play. He almost always put his money in as a favorite and was outdrawn quite often. He always seemed to recover pretty quickly and his chip count moved right back up. I thought his laydown of the King high flush he hit on the river against Murphy was probably most impressive. Great read.

His comments to Williams after he was busted out in 3rd really bugged me. After Raymer congratulated him and complimented him, telling him he was the toughest competitor he had faced, Josh went over and whispered to Williams, "bust this M.....F.....!" What was that all about? No class.

SossMan

09-21-2004, 01:41 PM

I'm just trying to show some evidence

being 2nd in chips midway through a tournament in hardly "evidence".
I have no opinion of his play since I have never played with him.

Easy E

09-21-2004, 01:46 PM

was prefaced around the central point that short term results in tournaments are SO much based on luck that we can't determine anything from one or two tournaments????

slickpoppa

09-21-2004, 01:51 PM

The tournament started with over 300 people and now it's down to less than thirty, so it's a little bit later than midway through the tournament.
And are you saying that it's incorrect to have an opinion about a player unless you have sat down and played against him? I think that Doyle Brunson is pretty good, but I've never played against him. What a simpleton I am.

snowlarbear

09-21-2004, 01:52 PM

wow he must have made quite a move on day 2, he's not even listed for day 1.

Desdia72

09-21-2004, 01:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just trying to show some evidence

being 2nd in chips midway through a tournament in hardly "evidence".
I have no opinion of his play since I have never played with him.

[/ QUOTE ]

through the tournament. if i recall correctly, pokerpages.com says that the top 18 spots get paid. so with 27 people left, i would say David has an excellent chance to cash. the tournament is more than midway through and it seems he's played particularly well to be 2nd in chips.

Desdia72

09-21-2004, 01:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
was prefaced around the central point that short term results in tournaments are SO much based on luck that we can't determine anything from one or two tournaments????

[/ QUOTE ]

folks in these forums is jocking Greg's WSOP win so much. that was one tournament. until he won, it was the first time i had ever heard of him.

swimfan

09-21-2004, 01:59 PM

SossMan

09-21-2004, 02:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
was prefaced around the central point that short term results in tournaments are SO much based on luck that we can't determine anything from one or two tournaments????

[/ QUOTE ]

folks in these forums is jocking Greg's WSOP win so much. that was one tournament. until he won, it was the first time i had ever heard of him.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe this is why:

Desdia72
addict

Reged: 05/11/04

slickpoppa

09-21-2004, 02:00 PM

Yes, I agree that doing well in two consecutive tournaments does not PROVE that you are a great player, but it SUGGESTS that you at least have some semblance of skill. Flipping a coin ten times in a row and getting heads every time does not prove that a coin is biased, but it certainly suggests that it is. (Note: Comparing 2 events to 10 is not outrageous because those 2 tournaments consist of 100s of events(hands) in which the probability in question is involved.)
All im trying to say that maybe Williams is not as bad as some people say he is. Obviously only the long run will settle this definitvely.

fnurt

09-21-2004, 02:02 PM

The WSOP is a long grind. Anyone making the final table for the first time is going to be a bit worse for wear, and is likely to make some questionable decisions. David's play of 55 at the final table, and his all-in call with K9 earlier, were clearly incorrect. None of that means he is a bad poker player or didn't deserve to be there. I am not sure how many of us would have made better decisions under the circumstances.

Some of this is due to the forum we're in, but I think everyone's poker game is better served when we focus on the play of hands rather than on the unanswerable question of whether so-and-so is a good player. Figuring out whether Gus Hansen is a lucky suck-out artist will not help your game much. But discussing the reasons behind the plays he makes, and trying to understand them, will help your game, whether Gus is right or wrong.

Most of us have a lot to learn about poker, so keep your eye on the ball.

SossMan

09-21-2004, 02:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the tournament is more than midway through and it seems he's played particularly well to be 2nd in chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should read Paul Phillips' thread about luck. Even if he wins this tourney and 4 more this year, I don't think you can start declaring him the best player in the world. You certainly cannot glean anything from the fact that he's 2nd in chips on the bubble in a 300 person tourney.

SossMan

09-21-2004, 02:05 PM

And are you saying that it's incorrect to have an opinion about a player unless you have sat down and played against him?

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but how on earth can you make a judgement about a player who you have seen maybe .00000001% of the hands he's played, and even those were most likely out of context or without complete information.
Hell, they were on ESPN, they may not have even happened.

slickpoppa

09-21-2004, 02:13 PM

That's exactly my point: People should not be calling David a sh*tty player because they saw him play a couple of bad hands on ESPN.

SossMan

09-21-2004, 02:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That's exactly my point: People should not be calling David a sh*tty player because they saw him play a couple of bad hands on ESPN.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree, nor should they be calling him a good player, or a mediocre player.
there is a huge tendency to overrate skill in poker in the short run. In the short run, it's gambling, pure and simple.

nolanfan34

09-21-2004, 02:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hell, they were on ESPN, they may not have even happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quote of the day, that's great. Good post by Fnurt as well.

To the original poster - yes, there are a few Williams haters out there, but I think the majority of the people responding to the 55 thread were discussing/critiquing/analyzing his play there, not indicting him as a good/bad player. It's like Fnurt said, this particular part of the forum isn't always the best for poker hand discussion, but arguments over who is good/isn't good is pretty much pointless.

Discussion of how to play certain hands, and why, isn't pointless.

Nottom

09-21-2004, 02:34 PM

Has Greg been playing in many of the WPT events? Has he cashed in any of them?

Tyler Durden

09-21-2004, 02:50 PM

I think there was a post that he would play in the Borgata event. He was supposed to be on Jimmy Kimmel but he got rescheduled so his time was free.

daryn

09-21-2004, 02:54 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
He almost always put his money in as a favorite and was outdrawn quite often.

[/ QUOTE ]

what a joke

mack23

09-21-2004, 03:05 PM

There's nothing to hate about David Williams. He handled himself well beyond his years on the WSOP final table.

What I am dissapointed to see is who is in the #7 chip position. R-E-A-hole. That guys needs someone like Cloutier or Ted Forrest to cold-cock him after one of those pansy-ass-behind-your-back comments he likes to make. If Norman Chad noted at least 5 times during the telecast about how poor his personal skills are, than you know there was a lot more to his behavior than we saw on the final edit.

KanigawaCards7

09-21-2004, 03:06 PM

If only you guys could watch and understand his magic:the gathering play then you would understand that he's one of the smartest people ever, and has one of the best card playing minds ever.

jedi

09-21-2004, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If only you guys could watch and understand his magic:the gathering play then you would understand that he's one of the smartest people ever, and has one of the best card playing minds ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look, we know Williams is good at this. How good? I don't know for sure. Is he great? Not yet. Maybe in the future. How the hell do you know he's got one of the best card playing minds ever? You even admitted you don't know much about poker and come here to defend a play that has roundly been criticized and picked apart by others.

None of this is to say that Williams is horrible (or even great), but to just blanketly say he's great because he's your buddy isn't right.

And if he was so great at $:TG, why did he need to cheat?

Nick B.

09-21-2004, 03:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If Norman Chad noted at least 5 times during the telecast about how poor his personal skills are, than you know there was a lot more to his behavior than we saw on the final edit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Plenty of players criticize their opponents, so Arieh wasn't the first. Just because it is on tv, you think it is so bad. If Arieh said any other stuff I guarantee espn would have shown it.

KanigawaCards7

09-21-2004, 03:26 PM

poker is totally irrelevant to his card playing mind. If he was he had never played poker in his life, he would still be a card-playing genuis.I can assure you that the boy who once had a 4.0 GPA in economics at princeton is better at many card games besides poker, it just happens to be where the money is

Second HE DIDNT CHEAT. You are a troll who doesn't know what you are talking about. The DCI(the organization behind all the serious MTG tournaments are the first people to tell you he didnt intentionally cheat, and said so in a memo following the tournament. His friend loaned him the deck which has about a thousand dollars worth of the stupid collecters cards in it, and he had no control over what happened at the world championship. But what he did do was, he outplayed people all day to make the final table. NEVER accuse someone of cheating when you dont know what you are talking about.

KanigawaCards7

09-21-2004, 03:33 PM

i also should make something clear: Hes not my buddy. I know him and have talked to him a few times.but hes not my close personal friend. He is a friend of a friend and an adversary. He was an oppenent who beat me in tournament play with money on the line, who i respect. Hes a nice guy

eh923

09-21-2004, 04:25 PM

Would you give it a rest? Like anyone cares how good he is at Dungeons & Dragons (or whatever that stupid game is)?

eh923

09-21-2004, 04:32 PM

Along with that, was Paul's comment about judging a given play, and not the person himself.

For example, the 55 hand was horrible...but it might not be representative of his complete game.

jedi

09-21-2004, 04:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
poker is totally irrelevant to his card playing mind. If he was he had never played poker in his life, he would still be a card-playing genuis.I can assure you that the boy who once had a 4.0 GPA in economics at princeton is better at many card games besides poker, it just happens to be where the money is

[/ QUOTE ]

And what relevance does this have? So what if he's a genius? There are hundreds of geniuses out there who don't do squat.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are a troll who doesn't know what you are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahaha. Okay. So, he got kicked out of a tournament for cheating then. I don't care if he cheated or not, but that's why he got kicked out of a tournament. What should I be thinking?

[ QUOTE ]

The DCI(the organization behind all the serious MTG tournaments are the first people to tell you he didnt intentionally cheat, and said so in a memo following the tournament. His friend loaned him the deck which has about a thousand dollars worth of the stupid collecters cards in it, and he had no control over what happened at the world championship.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the difference? This card playing genius borrows a deck from someone else and doesn't make sure that all the cards are on the up-and-up? Intentional or not, that's why he got kicked out of the tournament.

[ QUOTE ]

But what he did do was, he outplayed people all day to make the final table. NEVER accuse someone of cheating when you dont know what you are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever.

So what does any of this have to do with calling 1/3 of his chips with 55?

KanigawaCards7

09-21-2004, 04:41 PM

Dungeons and dragons is totally different. No one who plays magic thinks they are dragons or wizards(or pretends to be), just like no one who plays poker thinks they are the queen of spades in medieval times, sucking up to the almighty King of spades, or the ace representing the lone rebel who will defeat the evil king. MTG is more similiar to chess than it is dungeons and dragons, but at the same time i think you are fundamentally right. I should give it a rest, and i agree that no one here cares.my post of defending David are over.sorry for wasting your board space. I just wish him the best of luck /images/graemlins/frown.gif

boedeker

09-21-2004, 04:57 PM

im a fan. have been since i saw him.

Sponger15SB

09-21-2004, 05:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Dungeons and dragons is totally different. No one who plays magic thinks they are dragons or wizards(or pretends to be), just like no one who plays poker thinks they are the queen of spades in medieval times, sucking up to the almighty King of spades, or the ace representing the lone rebel who will defeat the evil king. MTG is more similiar to chess than it is dungeons and dragons, but at the same time i think you are fundamentally right. I should give it a rest, and i agree that no one here cares.my post of defending David are over.sorry for wasting your board space. I just wish him the best of luck /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

its ok, we forgive your tremendous handjobbing of david williams in your short time here.

Sponger15SB

09-21-2004, 05:00 PM

KanigawaCards7

09-21-2004, 05:05 PM

its ok, we forgive your tremendous handjobbing of david williams in your short time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks.....I guess.

jedi

09-21-2004, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I just wish him the best of luck /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

As do I. He's a classy player, much better behaved than Matusow and Arieh. We here on the boards just lose patience with people who blindly defend him and refuse to listen to valid criticism.

siccjay

09-21-2004, 05:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]

folks in these forums is jocking Greg's WSOP win so much. that was one tournament. until he won, it was the first time i had ever heard of him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please, learn English before posting again.

siccjay

09-21-2004, 06:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]

its ok, we forgive your tremendous handjobbing of david williams in your short time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks.....I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a sick little man. I was going to accuse you of worse than hand jobbing but it looks like you have already convicted yourself of swinging fron David Williams sack.

sdplayerb

09-21-2004, 06:35 PM

would you stop sucking him off. you post 5 times a day saying how great he is.
we all know the guy is super bright.
to say he is one of the best poker playing minds ever just proves you are completely clueless.
He is a good player, who had some bad plays shown on tv (one of which many top players said was terrible, thus he isn't one of the best poker playing minds ever). And he called allin with K9 (a bad bad call) and was 70% to get knocked out around 15th..in which case you wouldn't be saying anything.

trying posting something of value, once..just once.

KanigawaCards7

09-21-2004, 06:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

its ok, we forgive your tremendous handjobbing of david williams in your short time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks.....I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a sick little man. I was going to accuse you of worse than hand jobbing but it looks like you have already convicted yourself of swinging fron David Williams sack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was saying thanks for the part where he forgave me for bieng immature. Jedi's comments were fair, but you have just insulted me. Im not going to sink to your level past the fact that you are clearly the sick one. like Greg Raymer said, I'm not going to respond to assmunkeys. /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

KanigawaCards7

09-21-2004, 06:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
would you stop sucking him off. you post 5 times a day saying how great he is.
we all know the guy is super bright.
to say he is one of the best poker playing minds ever just proves you are completely clueless.
He is a good player, who had some bad plays shown on tv (one of which many top players said was terrible, thus he isn't one of the best poker playing minds ever). And he called allin with K9 (a bad bad call) and was 70% to get knocked out around 15th..in which case you wouldn't be saying anything.

trying posting something of value, once..just once.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said he had one of the best poker playing minds ever.That would be a clueless comment. I said he had one of the best card playing minds ever.That is def. different. Also if he went out 15th that wouldn't have changed anything for me. I would still tell you he was brilliant because he is. but why would you come in here and tell em to stop "sucking him" when in my last post was that i was done.Geesh. Its not like I wrote 25 topics about him with love letters i only have been in two David Williams topics. and So just let me be. Why do you have to be so hostile( note: jedi you werent bieng hostile) when i just want to support my favorite player in poker. Maybe not all my comments have been perfect i admit that, but It wasn't like i tried to offend anyone, like so many post here. I dont even believe hes going to win borgata my prediction is 4th or 5th.I shouldnt be shunned for supporting someone i like.

siccjay

09-21-2004, 06:58 PM

Release da nuts!

Desdia72

09-21-2004, 08:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
was prefaced around the central point that short term results in tournaments are SO much based on luck that we can't determine anything from one or two tournaments????

[/ QUOTE ]

folks in these forums is jocking Greg's WSOP win so much. that was one tournament. until he won, it was the first time i had ever heard of him.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe this is why:

Desdia72
addict

Reged: 05/11/04

[/ QUOTE ]

when i registered as a member for these forums does'nt mean anything. if Greg is a consistent tourney performer, then he would have a recognizable record in which to reference. i follow the tournament rankings on Cardplayer, something that i've been doing for quite some time now and i've never ran across his name before. i follow the breakdown of placings in every major tournament posted on both www.pokerpages.com (http://www.pokerpages.com) and www.cardplayer.com (http://www.cardplayer.com) and i have'nt seen his name. maybe it's because he not only does'nt play many but also does'nt cash much in the ones he does play. now, none of this means i'm that i'm saying he's a bad player; however, if you guys wanna keep referencing back to Paul P's tourney thread, his WSOP win does'nt prove he's a good tourney player either.

Desdia72

09-21-2004, 08:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Has Greg been playing in many of the WPT events? Has he cashed in any of them?

[/ QUOTE ]

www.pokerpages.com (http://www.pokerpages.com)

he busted out of the Borgata Open. i think he played the new Mirage event too and did'nt cash.

jwvdcw

09-21-2004, 09:58 PM

I have no clue on how long that tourney has been going on, but often times bad players will fill up the chip leaders early on as they risk their entire stacks on 50/50s against each other and someone has to win. Not really saying anything about Williams....just saying that him being a chip leader isn't a huge point in his favor imo if the tourney is early.

jedi

09-21-2004, 11:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]

when i registered as a member for these forums does'nt mean anything. if Greg is a consistent tourney performer, then he would have a recognizable record in which to reference. i follow the tournament rankings on Cardplayer, something that i've been doing for quite some time now and i've never ran across his name before. i follow the breakdown of placings in every major tournament posted on both www.pokerpages.com (http://www.pokerpages.com) and www.cardplayer.com (http://www.cardplayer.com) and i have'nt seen his name. maybe it's because he not only does'nt play many but also does'nt cash much in the ones he does play. now, none of this means i'm that i'm saying he's a bad player; however, if you guys wanna keep referencing back to Paul P's tourney thread, his WSOP win does'nt prove he's a good tourney player either.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that poker is more than just tournaments, right? And not all tournaments (not even all big tournaments) have results posted in Cardplayer or pokerpages.

Desdia72

09-21-2004, 11:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

when i registered as a member for these forums does'nt mean anything. if Greg is a consistent tourney performer, then he would have a recognizable record in which to reference. i follow the tournament rankings on Cardplayer, something that i've been doing for quite some time now and i've never ran across his name before. i follow the breakdown of placings in every major tournament posted on both www.pokerpages.com (http://www.pokerpages.com) and www.cardplayer.com (http://www.cardplayer.com) and i have'nt seen his name. maybe it's because he not only does'nt play many but also does'nt cash much in the ones he does play. now, none of this means i'm that i'm saying he's a bad player; however, if you guys wanna keep referencing back to Paul P's tourney thread, his WSOP win does'nt prove he's a good tourney player either.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that poker is more than just tournaments, right? And not all tournaments (not even all big tournaments) have results posted in Cardplayer or pokerpages.

[/ QUOTE ]

just tournaments. however, we're not talking about side games or home games. people, namely Sossman, wanna reference back to Paul P's tourney thread and this thread is about David Williams in what? a tourney. if he [Sossman] wants to state that if David wins the Borgata ans/or 4 more this year, it does'nt prove anything, then i say, if Greg performed well in some weekly $200 NL tournaments at Foxwoods that happened to not get documented in the two biggest tournament records publications, that does'nt prove anything. i think that most people in these forums take Greg being an overrall good poker player and automatically assume that he's a good tourney performer as well. those are two different things. i've been playing poker less than a year and in the few MTTs i've played online, i'm about 50/50 between cashing (with one final table, a top 15 finish, two top 30 finishes, a top 100 finish [1200+ entrants]) and placing OOTM. does that mean i'm a good tourney player, although Pokerpages or Cardplayer does'nt post the results? NO. does'nt mean diddly-squat.

ohkanada

09-22-2004, 12:18 AM

The fact Greg won the WSOP hasn't really changed my opinion of him other to be quite impressed that he was able to handle the pressures of a 7 day tourney unlike most of us could do.

So sure the fact he won the WSOP doesn't mean he is a good tourney player. We already knew he was a very good tourney player (based on his 2+2 postings and for some of us, seeing him in action) before the rest of you found out.

Ken