WSOP 2002: How much should we tip?

I decided to post this message on this forum because I wanted to get everyones opinion including dealers.


If you play a satellite and win, what percentage should you tip?


If you place in the money at an event, what percentage should you tip?


Does anyone know if the 6% that is being taken out of the prize pool money will be used to pay dealers?


If I do tip, is this tax deductable?


Good Luck


Mark

None of the 6% goes to dealers. I'm not a WSOP player, so my opinion means less I suppose. But I can't imagine intending to tip anything on top of a 6% charge. If I won big I'd probably feel guilty about stiffing and tip something and resent it. My guess as a tax ignoramus is that your win will be reported and the tip is included in the taxable amount since it is optional. Last year the 3% was taken out up front so winners didn't have to pay tax on the toke pool.(Like a 401K for toke pools) So If I were to cave in and tip, I would tip between 1-2% on the amount I got after taxes. If I won 100,000 in some event, I would tip 1000, which is almost 2% of 60K, which is about what I'd net in the top bracket. Lousy tip maybe, but if I were dealing I would expect zero tips this year. The disaster scenario is for the tips to be so bad in the early events there aren't enough dealers. Could happen, probably won't I guess.

I came down to work the tournament this year. Tips are not included in the 6%. Dealers are being paid $5.15 per hour. Not a living wage as you know. There are many very good dealers traveling a long ways to work this tournament. I personally came 600 miles. I'm fortunate that I have family here so expenses are minimal.


That being said I agree with High Desert Poker Man that after a few events if dealers can't make any money all you may have left are a few that arent as good as we all would like. A mad exodus from LV of good dealers. It's very possible.


I am trying to take an objective and realistic view and be as unbiased as possible. As a player I want quality dealers in any game I play. Live or tournament. If I were playing in an event at the WSOP I want the BEST dealers. Of course we all know when it gets down to the filmed portions of the WSOP that the better dealers will be in the box. But wouldn't it be nice to know that these dealers were just as good as the dealer you had at the first day first table first round you played in? That you didnt have to stress or pre-occupy yourself with matters of dealing abilities

of a given dealer when you need to be paying attn to the game?


While no one of us here is in charge of hiring, paying, or dealer quality, I belive it would be in a players best interest for the quality to be maintained to throw a 1/2 way decent "bone" to the dealers when you cash in an event. As a dealer now I tip a little heavier then many. It's kinda expected. And that's ok by me. Realisticly, I think if a person cashes in an event he/she wants to thank those that worked their butts off during the event. Whatever you feel that showing your gratitude is should be fine. Not showing any grattitude in this manner would be bad form in my opinion and not good for the WSOP players and event as a whole for the reasons mentioned above.


Notice I did not state an amount. This is personal. But these dealers are being paid minimum wage and I want the best so I want to keep the best there.


Now at the same time I will not be directly affected by the tips in the WSOP event tip pool. I have been assigned to high limit live action section upstairs. Certainly the toughest section to work by far. And while I also will get paid minimum wage I am grateful and I now thank you all for that chip you throw my way for doing a good job.


I have not dealt in a number of years and when I see an exceptional dealer I will often throw them a small toke even when they never dealt me a single pot in a down (as long as i didnt lose a rack!)and say "very good job. You ran the game well. Thank you". They may not be the fastest, prettiest, or whatever. Just the fact that I had no worries whatsoever about their abilities to do everything correctly and they didnt participate in any verbal conflict directed towards them or stopped that directed to others in a proper fashion makes it worth it to me.


So to answer your question Mark. "it depends"

LOL hows that for a long winded answer?

Good post. I've been wanting to hear from a dealer, because I would not deal the tournament given how it is set up. I would figure on making about $7 per hour, which isn't enough to deal with poker players. :-) I thought the 3% toke pool last year was fair for everybody.

larry,


I agree with what you have said, but you still have not given me the answer to what I want to know, so I'll make a guesstimate and see if you disagree, so you can really give me a number for what the dealers are worth.


First, I thought the 3% from last year was too high. Here is my reasoning with the following example. Let's say that 600 players enter the Limit Hold'em Event for $2000. That leaves a prize pool of $1,200,000. Six percent goes to the house which is $72,000. I think this fee is too high. The house is actually making more money on this than most of its house games, including the slots.


Now, lets talk about dealer pay. What should a dealer get per hour at this event? For example, in this event with 600 players there would be 60 tables. How much per hour is each table worth? I think the figure falls between 1-to-2%. If it's one percent of the total prize pool that would be $12,000 for the dealers. If you take 60 tables by the amount of hours, which I believe would be approximately 16 hours for a two day event. The dealer would be paid $12.50 plus the $5.15 for a total of $17.65.


Please let me know if I am even close to what dealers expect. But, let me warn you that many players from other countries will not be aware that the house is not paying the dealer, so they will not tip. The foreign players don't tip in Europe, because the house pays a real living wage.


So this year, I expect you guys will get stiffed quite often. I'm sure that was the reason for taking the tips out of the prize pool automatically last year.


Don't forget that the players have to overcome the house advantage plus paying tips. So, tell me what you really think, because this is what I think is fair. I am willing to talk about it.


Good Luck


Mark

That 3% last year was not completely used as a toke pool. 1 1/2 % was the actual toke pool. Just a little info.

huh Mark? : )


Personally, if I were in the "big score" category

using your example above, based on 35% for 1st place I would have no problem throwing 20k or 5% of the prize less my entry fee. I may even toss a slight bit more. Then to the dealer that dealt me the most important key hand in the tournament for me I would buy 2 tickets to Hawaii.


To some this may seem too much. That's for all to decide themselves. Personally Mark I would be happy to deal to you anytime no matter how much it was just because I know you would be a pleasure to deal with at the table and concerned.


As for your personal % choice mentioned above I would still be there saying thank you very much and congratulations. Don't feel my % is to push you into feeling you must tip this amount or any amount higher then what you mentioned it is not intended that way. My thoughts are basically as follows. Many of the dealers are from outside areas and travel to deal this event. Their cost of living generally is somewhat higher then the average. While the cost of living in LV is lower then like say California where many dealers come from it is still going to cost the traveling dealer a bit more for day-to-day when including housing especially if they pay rents/mortages in their home location too. It is not your responsibility to pay that rent mortgage. But I feel thankful for the service and will tip a bit more to make it profitable for them too.


For me personally I was living in the SF bay area where rents were very high. With two roomates we paid $1000ea a month BEFORE utilities. We split 3 ways the rest and still paid another 200 for utilities. This is certainly the extreme. I fortunately have a couple sister-in-laws with great young nephews that I get to visit with and spend time with and my expenses are at a minimum.


To all that read this I hope it has not come off in a fashion it was not intended. I am trying to be objective while not being too self motivated. This can be a very tough spot to be in. Maybe I shoulda passed on this thread huh Mark! /images/wink.gif


Feel free to e-mail your thoughts and Mark lets have lunch together when you get to the shoe.

bigfishead1@aol.com


Later and good luck!

Larry,


I think we are getting somewhere. You now finally tell us that they paid out 1.5% last year. So, my estimate between 1-to-2% was not way off base. Furthermore, I do believe that you should be compensated for having to travel to Las Vegas.


The other issue I want to deal with is the players do not get to pick which dealer they want during the tournament. So, I believe that it ends up being a "communist" event. This is why I really am in favor of the house deciding this, and taking out the tip money for a tournament event. It makes the tax burden easier for the player, and it guarantees that you'll be paid.


A good analogy to this is tipping in resturants. When you go to a resturant with one or two people it is up to you to tip. But, everyone knows that they should tip 15%. If they get bad service, they tip less, and if they get good service, they tip more. But, if you go to a resturant with a large group of people. The resturant requires that an automatic charge of 15% be made to the bill. The resturant does this to guarantee that there employees get paid. Resturant workers have learned that they usually get undertiped when they have to serve a large group of people. This is how I view tournaments. What I think will happen is the players that make back just 1.5 times their buy-in will be reluctant to tip.


Furthermore, I do believe that the dealers should make more money at this event, due to the expenses of having to pay the extra money to live in Vegas when it is not your home.


Larry, believe me I am on your side. The casino sponsoring this event has made me have to re-think if it is a waste of money to play the tournament, and it's mostly due to the 6% charge. I don't know what the expenses are for the casino, but I would hate to see the owners or organizers getting overpaid and the dealers getting underpaid. This year I might just play the side games instead.


I have nothing against giving a gift to dealers that were good to me during the tournament, I just need to find a way to make it tax deductable.

So, I guess it would help it I heard from a tax lawyer.


Good Luck


Mark

at the shoe. I'll be there a week from today. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post.


Good Luck


Mark