Sometimes it pays to gamb00l

[jar]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls $1 (All-In), MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (29.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(7 players, 1 all-in)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO folds, Button calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (17.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players, 1 all-in)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button folds, UTG folds.

River: (20.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 25.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 14.75 BB, between MP1, Hero and UTG+1.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 10.50 BB, between MP1 and Hero.</font>
MP1: cmon
Hero: bigger pair?
Hero: I couldn't fold, the pot was HUGE

Anyone care to guess what MP1 had?
Also, the guy that called 4 cold and then folded the flop for one SB is now in my buddy list.

[Bropago]

I am a super-noob to the forums, but I still like to give my opinions. I dont like the cap PF. Since the original raiser is all-in because of the 3-bet there doesnt seem to be much chance of a cap. JJ is a good hand, but with so much action already you might be getting into trouble by capping it. On the flop I would raise, it was a good flop for J's and you need to find out where you are in the hand.

[illunious]

I like the preflop cap, especially since UTG+1 is put all in.

I would raise the flop I think, but I like how you played it. It's hard to say exactly what is correct since you have a great hand on every street.

[cold_cash]

Raise the turn.

[illunious]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this.

[btspider]

i call preflop. call the flop. raise the turn. raise the river. and say nothing after showdown except perhaps "thx".

[edthayer]

What do you guys think about folding this preflop?

[siccjay]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you guys think about folding this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think no. Not at your typical party table.

[edthayer]

I've seen some PP players cap preflop with K9o, but these kind of players are rare, even for party. Against a raise and a reraise preflop, I think you should probably fold unless you have a read on the raisers. SSHE says the cutoff is QQ against a preflop reraise.

[Evan]

Gamble???? This is about as passively as you could've played here. MP1's reraise looks like an attempt to get head up with the almost all-in UTG+1.
The preflop cap is good. Raise the flop. If he calls then checks, bet the turn, if he calls then bets or 3 bets the flop call down. Obviously raise the river.

[flexus]

raise the turn to protect against overcards

[cartoonsoldier]

Raising the turn is important here, thats the best way to protect your hand here. I wouldn't even mind a raise on the flop though.

If you were really doing "gamb00l" you would be raising at every opportunity.

[PokerBob]

MP1 had A2s.

[frank_iii]

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen some PP players cap preflop with K9o, but these kind of players are rare, even for party.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it's an auto-add to the buddy list. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Last night a player limp/capped with 87o. Of course, he did hit a straight to beat my AA so what do I know?

I agree with everyone else on this hand that you need to raise the turn. I would have raised the flop, too.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with everyone else on this hand that you need to raise the turn. I would have raised the flop, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop probably doesn't give you the opportunity to raise the turn. That's why you wait till the turn (double bet size) on a hand like this (non-scary board).

[Nottom]

You need to raise the turn.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you guys think about folding this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not with a limper and a cold-caller involved.

[jar]

[ QUOTE ]
Gamble???? This is about as passively as you could've played here. MP1's reraise looks like an attempt to get head up with the almost all-in UTG+1.
The preflop cap is good. Raise the flop. If he calls then checks, bet the turn, if he calls then bets or 3 bets the flop call down. Obviously raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

The gamble part was the preflop cap. The later passivity was me seeing weak tight monsters under the bed. My basic thought process was, raise and a reraise, damn, overpair, but I don't want to fold these pretty pocket jacks, so I hit the cap button. Then I was thinking well, you made the pot huge, call down and see his AA-KK. Then I hit the jack, and the river raise is obvious. When MP1 complained in the chat after the showdown, I assumed I had been correct. Then I looked at the hand history, and remembered that this is .50/1 on party.

[Entity]

If capping preflop with JJ in a 7-way pot is gambling, then I'm a hopeless addict. I'd cap here for value with a lot less.

Oh, as many others have said, you need to raise the turn. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[btspider]

Shouldn't Hero just be calling PF here? He wants to encourage the blinds to stay around and see if the original raiser caps. SSH lists JJ in this situation as 'play'.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Shouldn't Hero just be calling PF here? He wants to encourage the blinds to stay around and see if the original raiser caps. SSH lists JJ in this situation as 'play'.

[/ QUOTE ]
I like raising here for the following reasons:

UTG, UTG+1, MP1 and MP2 are already staying, so this pot will be 5-way. I don't want to encourage the blinds to make this a 8 or 9 way pot unless they're willing to pay to do so. My equity against one limping hand and 2 good hands is enough (34% from my analysis) that capping is for value, and I want anyone else coming into the pot to be coming in for as many bets as possible to increase my holdings.

My equity against UTG-MP2 is 27%.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: 16.7675 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { AA-TT, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 2: 19.5892 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { AA-TT, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 3: 19.3727 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { AA-TT, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 4: 16.7676 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 5: 27.5028 % [ 00.27 00.00 ] { JJ }

[/ QUOTE ]

Add in 3 more random hands, and my equity goes down to 17.9%.
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: 12.3157 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { AA-TT, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 2: 13.7813 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-TT, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 3: 13.5094 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-TT, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 4: 12.4866 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 5: 17.8795 % [ 00.18 00.00 ] { JJ }
Hand 6: 09.9849 % [ 00.09 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 7: 09.9858 % [ 00.09 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 8: 10.0555 % [ 00.09 00.01 ] { random }

[/ QUOTE ]
.27 x 20SB = 5.44 SB.
.189 x 24 (8x3) SB = 4.536 SB.

(If capped) -- .189 x 32 = 6.042SB.

If it gets capped, it's fine to have them in, but I'd rather be the one doing the capping, to make sure they are paying a premium to get in.

I know my analysis is a little cursory, but unless I KNOW one of these players has QQ-AA (and at Party, I rarely do), I cap here almost all the time. I also think that JJ is easier to play here when capping, rather than calling.

Rob

[Entity]

Damn. I re-read my analysis of capping with JJ here and I'm not sure I'd like it.

Would some LAGs like to back me up? I know I would cap JJ here, but that's largely read-dependent. Maybe overplaying JJ is a hole in my game. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[Nottom]

I think you probably overplay JJ.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you probably overplay JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've got too small of a sample size to argue otherwise (only 53 JJ hands). Win 62.26%, VPIP 100%, PFR 96.23%. I'll 3-bet with JJ but only advocate capping this because of the number of people already in the pot. Is this bad?

You'd cold-call this then, I assume?

Rob

[edthayer]

I think jacks in this situation are tough to play. You practically need to hit your set to win. I don't see why you'd cap on a hand that is ultimately a speculative hand.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I think jacks in this situation are tough to play. You practically need to hit your set to win. I don't see why you'd cap on a hand that is ultimately a speculative hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Unless I'm given a reason to suspect AA, KK, and QQ are out, capping is a fine move. I think it's also very possible that UTG has a weak ace/weak hand, UTG+1 has AT+ (including KQ, etc.), and MP1 has AQs or AKs. Given the cold-call, it seems quite possible that MP2 is either a bad player or has a pocket pair and is hoping for a set.

There are 3 hands that beat JJ, and there are 4 other people in this pot.

If the table is weak-passive and this sort of action has yet to happen, then capping is probably bad. But given the general action I see at PP tables, if you're calling here, I hope you're calling with any pocket pair, since you're only doing it for set value. I've been in similar situations against multiple AK hands (or AK/AQ/AK) and been regretful when I've just called. The only time I'll just call is when I know the PFR will only do so with QQ-AA.

Rob

[edthayer]

Maybe I give these players too much credit.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I give these players too much credit.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's also quite possible I give them too little credit.

I'll make one caveat here: I would very much like a read on the table before I cap with JJ. It's very possible that I've gotten very lucky with JJ, and I should cool it a little bit.

Rob

[DrNo888]

Newbie here so ignore my comments. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I would have raised on all streets. I am learning to be a lot more aggressive so that's what I would have done.

I think he had pocket 7's.

[charlie_t_jr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with everyone else on this hand that you need to raise the turn. I would have raised the flop, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop probably doesn't give you the opportunity to raise the turn. That's why you wait till the turn (double bet size) on a hand like this (non-scary board).

[/ QUOTE ]

Non scary board...with the pre-flop action, any over card on the turn or river kills your J's...pots big lets do what we can to win it now...raise.